The Beauty Of Determinism!

[seer]

No, our desires represent the reasons we make choices.We still make choices.

If you chose to wear a red shirt, you will make the choice within a limited selection of shirts you desired to buy. Your desires ultimate decided what shirts and clothing you buy, and what you chose to buy. You still exercise your free will within the constraints of what you desire. What you desire is ultimate decided by many factors not in your control, like your culture and choice of religion, which in turn is in a large part determined for you by the culture and family you were raised in.

Yes, but our desires are determined. So again, where is the freedom?

[shunyadragon]

I gave a definition in post 154:

There is no definition for 'determinism' in post 154.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but our desires are determined. So again, where is the freedom?

We still make a range of decisions based on our desires.

You still have not defined nor demonstrated 'genuine freedom,' and how that is different from making decisions and choices based on our desires.

You have to demonstrate Free Will based on the illusion or delusion of Libertarian Free Will, and not responded to this specifically.

If you chose to wear a red shirt, you will make the choice within a limited selection of shirts you desired to buy. Your desires ultimate decided what shirts and clothing you buy, and what you chose to buy. You still exercise your free will within the constraints of what you desire. What you desire is ultimate decided by many factors not in your control, like your culture and choice of religion, which in turn is in a large part determined for you by the culture and family you were raised in.

What other than our desires determines whether we make Free Will decisions?

[seer]

There is no definition for 'determinism' in post 154.

It is a definition for free will.

[seer]

What other than our desires determines whether we make Free Will decisions?

Our rational mind. We can have competing desires - I want a piece of that cake, or I want to watch my weight. My rational mind decides between the two options - and no matter which I choose I always had the power to do otherwise, to choose the opposite. That is libertarian free will.

You still have not defined nor demonstrated 'genuine freedom,' and how that is different from making decisions and choices based on our desires.

Yes, I did define it in post #154 and 163.

We still make a range of decisions based on our desires.

So do monkeys, so again where is the freedom?

[shunyadragon]

It is a definition for free will.

Not a good definition of Free Will. All it does is describe humans making decisions based on their desires. Such decisions take place based on our desires regardless of the degree of Free Will that humans have. Determinism regardless of hard or soft allows for such decisions with in the range of our desire to make decisions.

Even in hard-Determinism our desires are not rigidly mechanistically determined. The desires of different individuals in different cultures develop in a range of variable circumstances. These circumstances always give a range of possible choices. From your closet you have the choice of a red, blue, or plaid shirt based on your choice of the shirts you previously chose to buy. Your choices of shirts to purchase are decided by your desires, which are determined by your culture in one way or another.

[seer]

Not a good definition of Free Will. All it does is describe humans making decisions based on their desires. Such decisions take place based on our desires regardless of the degree of Free Will that humans have. Determinism regardless of hard or soft allows for such decisions with in the range of our desire to make decisions.

Yes, it is a good definition of libertarian free will. It states that we have real choice, the power to do otherwise. Under my own volition I can choose the cake or not choose the cake. I can choose between two competing desires. So again, where is the freedom in your model? If I follow your logic a monkey has free will.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, it is a good definition of libertarian free will. It states that we have real choice, the power to do otherwise. Under my own volition I can choose the cake or not choose the cake. I can choose between two competing desires. So again, where is the freedom in your model? If I follow your logic a monkey has free will.

Again, we have a real choice under Determinism. You have failed to make the distinction of making choices either way.

Again . . .

Even in hard-Determinism our desires are not rigidly mechanistically determined. The desires of different individuals in different cultures develop in a range of variable circumstances, and have real choices and the decision to do otherwise. These circumstances always give a range of possible choices. From your closet you have the choice of a red, blue, or plaid shirt based on your choice of the shirts you previously chose to buy. Your choices of shirts to purchase are decided by your desires, which are determined by your culture in one way or another.

You have failed to describe how we would make choices outside the limits of our desires, as in the example of the shirts. You have only purchased a limited selection of shirts based on your desires and culture, unless it is a Halloween costume.

[seer]

Again, we have a real choice under Determinism. You have failed to make the distinction of making choices either way.

Again . . .

Even in hard-Determinism our desires are not rigidly mechanistically determined. The desires of different individuals in different cultures develop in a range of variable circumstances, and have real choices and the decision to do otherwise. These circumstances always give a range of possible choices. From your closet you have the choice of a red, blue, or plaid shirt based on your choice of the shirts you previously chose to buy. Your choices of shirts to purchase are decided by your desires, which are determined by your culture in one way or another.

You have failed to describe how we would make choices outside the limits of our desires, as in the example of the shirts. You have only purchased a limited selection of shirts based on your desires and culture, unless it is a Halloween costume.

Shuny if you are claiming that I have the power to do otherwise, that I wasn't determined by antecedent causes to choose the red shirt, and that I really did have it within my power to choose a different shirt then you are speaking of libertarian free will.

Again:

In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny if you are claiming that I have the power to do otherwise, that I wasn't determined by antecedent causes to choose the red shirt, and that I really did have it within my power to choose a different shirt then you are speaking of libertarian free will.

Antecedent causes are very obvious as described.

Again:[/QUOTE]


It has already been determined and demonstrated by scientific research that libertarian free will does not exist, because to a certain extent antecedent circumstances limit not determine absolutely our choses.

For libertarian free will to true in all our decisions the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. It is clear that scientific research has demonstrated that this is not true as previously cited.

[seer]

It has already been determined and demonstrated by scientific research that libertarian free will does not exist, because to a certain extent antecedent circumstances limit not determine absolutely our choses.

For libertarian free will to true in all our decisions the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. It is clear that scientific research has demonstrated that this is not true as previously cited.

Make up you mind Shuny, you said: The desires of different individuals in different cultures develop in a range of variable circumstances, and have real choices and the decision to do otherwise.


Do you believe that we have the power to do otherwise? Could I have chosen a different shirt? If you answer yes, then that is libertarian free will by definition. If not then in what sense are we free? Be specific please.

[shunyadragon]

Make up you mind Shuny, you said: The desires of different individuals in different cultures develop in a range of variable circumstances, and have real choices and the decision to do otherwise.


Do you believe that we have the power to do otherwise? Could I have chosen a different shirt? If you answer yes, then that is libertarian free will by definition. If not then in what sense are we free? Be specific please.

No, choosing your shirt among a limited choice in your closet does not demonstrate Libertarian free will by definition. Different philosophies concerning the nature of human will deal with the cause and nature of the decision making process, not the fact that people make different decisions at different times, and of course chose otherwise.

You have not responded to the fact that scientific research has demonstrated that the philosophy of 'Libertarian Free Will is a loser.

Of course, I forget. You disagree with science whenever it disagrees with your agenda.

[seer]

No, choosing your shirt among a limited choice in your closet does not demonstrate Libertarian free will by definition. Different philosophies concerning the nature of human will deal with the cause and nature of the decision making process, not the fact that people make different decisions at different times, and of course chose otherwise.

You have not responded to the fact that scientific research has demonstrated that the philosophy of 'Libertarian Free Will is a loser.

Then there is no genuine freedom in your model. We are slaves to our desires and determined by antecedent conditions. If you take away the ability to do otherwise (libertarian free will) then you are left with determinism.

[shunyadragon]

Then there is no genuine freedom in your model. We are slaves to our desires and determined by antecedent conditions. If you take away the ability to do otherwise (libertarian free will) then you are left with determinism.

Still failing to respond . . .

No, choosing your shirt among a limited choice in your closet does not demonstrate Libertarian free will by definition. Different philosophies concerning the nature of human will deal with the cause and nature of the decision making process, not the fact that people make different decisions at different times, and of course chose otherwise.

You have not responded to the fact that scientific research has demonstrated that the philosophy of 'Libertarian Free Will is a loser.

[seer]

Still failing to respond . . .

No, choosing your shirt among a limited choice in your closet does not demonstrate Libertarian free will by definition. Different philosophies concerning the nature of human will deal with the cause and nature of the decision making process, not the fact that people make different decisions at different times, and of course chose otherwise.

You have not responded to the fact that scientific research has demonstrated that the philosophy of 'Libertarian Free Will is a loser.

Shuny, it doesn't matter what science says, that is not what we are discussing - I am making the point that freedom and determinism are not compatible. And you keep saying that we can choose otherwise - that is the very definition Libertarian Free Will. In other words do you agree that I had the power to choose a different color shirt this morning, other than the one I did?