Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, the Holy Spirit works in coordination with people. It doesn't do the evangelizing itself. It doesn't float around and possess people. If people were not needed in the evangelization process then there wouldn't be any need for the Great Commission.

EGGzackly - and I have seen the Holy Spirit work IN SPITE of the persons involved.

One of my favorite examples (may have been shared elsewhere) was the 15 year old girl from my youth group when we were training our youth in personal evangelism. We were using the "Four Spiritual Laws", and we had practiced approaching the door, getting invited in, introducing ourselves, "bridge questions", etc.... and had actually done role playing in preparing our youth group.

Well, Kathy wanted to give it a try, so we walked up to the door, and by human standards, she did EVERYTHING wrong. She knocked on the door, and when the lady opened the main door, but left the screen door closed, Kathy opened the pamphlet and just started reading it in a monotone determined voice. I was embarrassed, as she was doing NOTHING we practiced. I kept waiting for her to take a breath so I could "save the day", but she kept reading.

When she got to the part "Would you like to receive Christ as your savior?", I heard the woman on the other side of the screen door crying, and answer, "yes, I would". She had been praying for God to send somebody to her because she was very confused, frustrated, upset.....

She invited us in, and we had a wonderful conversation, and she prayed to ask Jesus to forgive her of her sins and to save her.

I fondly recall that as the day when the Holy Spirit taught me "it's not about YOU!"

[Cow Poke]

Agreed. I know some people who have a very simple, yet very devout faith. They aren't wordy, and they don't win people over with intellect. They win people over by showing that they truly care, that they truly love, in both their words and actions. They spread the Gospel message by touching people's hearts. Is there a need for an intellectual type of Christianity? Certainly. Should there be more of a focus within Christianity on theology, and philosophy, and history, and science? Absolutely. But is that the only thing that people respond to? Not at all.

1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, but do not have love, I receive no benefit.

You can debate theology or apologetics with someone till you're blue in the face, but the sort of evangelism that I've seen most often work in someone's life is when you put aside a lot of the intellectual stuff and get to the real person to person, soul to soul type of stuff. When you are able to pinpoint that hurt in them, or that void, or that issue that keeps them awake at night and speak to that. I think the intellectual side of things really hits its stride after that's been dealt with. Too often people become Christians for emotional or a spiritual reasons, but then don't have the knowledge or intellectual wherewithal to withstand skepticism and heresy.

I praise God that there are good solid Christian Apologists - we need them - but we also need fishers of men. What good does it do if we give somebody "all the right reasons", but they never accept Christ as Savior? (And, yeah, we're agreeing - not arguing with you )

[whag]

Not in my opinion, no. Often, it's personality based, with people following a man.

It seriously does not surprise me that you don't understand this distinction.

Probably because they were operating in the flesh.

So, now we're changing it to "smart" instead of "a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach"?

You're just flat out wrong about this. Let's see -- I share the gospel on a regular basis, and I see changed lives and "fruit that remains". Your experience is.....?

OK, I'll use your line from earlier - that's dumb.

[Cow Poke]

SERIOUSLY? I have a hard time believing you're this ignorant (in the classic sense) of Christian life. Joel Osteen, for example, has a HUGE following - that doesn't mean his followers are going to Heaven. There are any number of "preachers" out there who have their own following.

Condescension? I honestly don't believe you understand how the Holy Spirit works. It's my honest opinion. It's not "condescending".

No, this is a Christian run board where you come to do battle with Christians PRETENDING to be one of the "fish" I'm fishing for.

[Cow Poke]

Some of the smartest and most successful people I know have little or no formal education, let alone ""a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach", which is what you said, before changing it to "smart". It's right there in black and white.

Uhhh... yeah, and that means what to somebody who is eternally saved, and trusting Jesus?

[Cow Poke]

Proselyte - a person who has converted from one opinion, religion, or party to another, especially recently.

Wanna try that one again?

[Cow Poke]

I'm thinking you must be confusing evangelism with apologetics.

When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13 (NIV)
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (KJV)

[whag]

I'm thinking you must be confusing evangelism with apologetics.

They go hand in hand, and you know it. And you know what I meant. You're a terrible proselytizer.

When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13 (NIV)
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (KJV)

I submit that boldness sans intelligence these days doesn't work like you think it does. Westboro Baptists think they're bold. Perhaps they are, but they're not persuasive.

[KingsGambit]

I'm thinking you must be confusing evangelism with apologetics.

Evangelism often turns to apologetics, especially in front of a crowd. Someone will often try to turn the tables by asking the preacher a tough question.

I remember this happening at my college. There was a street preacher who had attracted a crowd of easily over 100-200 on campus. Somebody asked him where Cain got his wife from, and the guy had no idea what to say.

[Cow Poke]

They go hand in hand, and you know it.

But they're clearly not the same thing, but obviously don't know that.

And you know what I meant. You're a terrible proselytizer.

Meh... one of the greatest joys a Christian can have is to win others to Christ, and, many years later, see that "fruit that remains". Just last week on Facebook, a young lady contacted me who had been in my youth group over 40 years ago. She is a missionary to Africa. Facebook has been fun that way, as I have been hearing from some of my "proselytes" () throughout the past several years - some are Pastors, one is the Dean of Students at a major university, one works for the International Mission Board, one is a missionary to Mexico..... It is this kind of joy that keeps a "terrible proselytizer" telling people about Jesus. God is good!

I submit that boldness sans intelligence these days doesn't work like you think it does.

You are totally free to be wrong. Even profoundly so.

Westboro Baptists think they're bold. Perhaps they are, but they're not persuasive.

Yeah, they're not exactly the poster children for evangelism, and I don't think they're operating in the Spirit.

[Cow Poke]

Evangelism often turns to apologetics, especially in front of a crowd. Someone will often try to turn the tables by asking the preacher a tough question.

Sure. Most of my evangelism is one on one. The situation to which you refer will often draw people like Whag, who just love to antagonize. Do you think that guy was sincerely asking that question? Or was he likely just trying to humiliate the preacher?

I remember this happening at my college. There was a street preacher who had attracted a crowd of easily over 100-200 on campus. Somebody asked him where Cain got his wife from, and the guy had no idea what to say.

While I admire the tenacity of "street preachers", I've never felt called to do that.

[KingsGambit]

Sure. Most of my evangelism is one on one. The situation to which you refer will often draw people like Whag, who just love to antagonize. Do you think that guy was sincerely asking that question? Or was he likely just trying to humiliate the preacher?



While I admire the tenacity of "street preachers", I've never felt called to do that.

He was of course trying to make the person look foolish. Unfortunately, in this case, the person didn't even need any help. They chose to show up on a liberal campus with a "No homos in heaven" sign. They told a newspaper interviewer the next day that in their two years of daily college evangelism, they had maybe 40 converts... so clearly they could have had better success with a different technique. (So in this case I don't think it really mattered how he would have responded.)

I think if somebody is going to do public style things (maybe like when Paul did some of his public preaching), they should at the least have a solid grounding for their faith and not be a new convert.

[Cow Poke]

He was of course trying to make the person look foolish. Unfortunately, in this case, the person didn't even need any help. They chose to show up on a liberal campus with a "No homos in heaven" sign.

A recipe for disaster.

They told a newspaper interviewer the next day that in their two years of daily college evangelism, they had maybe 40 converts... so clearly they could have had better success with a different technique. (So in this case I don't think it really mattered how he would have responded.)

I would agree - there were probably other questions to follow. My favorite is "did Adam and Eve have bellybuttons".

I think if somebody is going to do public style things (maybe like when Paul did some of his public preaching), they should at the least have a solid grounding for their faith and not be a new convert.

Absolutely - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear...

One of my favorite soulwinners - and the guy who taught me how to win souls - was a big tough steelworker with a very gentle spirit. I have been with him on many occasions where somebody would ask one of those "tough questions", and Ray would say, "I'll be glad to talk about that, but, first, can I tell you about Jesus?" He would be polite, yet firm, recognizing that often times those questions were a smoke screen. More times than not, when that person prayed and asked Jesus to save them, they didn't really care about their "question" anymore.

[whag]

Meh...* one of the greatest joys a Christian can have is to win others to Christ, and, many years later, see that "fruit that remains".* Just last week on Facebook, a young lady contacted me who had been in my youth group over 40 years ago.* She is a missionary to Africa.* Facebook has been fun that way, as I have been hearing from some of my "proselytes" () throughout the past several years - some are Pastors, one is the Dean of Students at a major university, one works for the International Mission Board, one is a missionary to Mexico.....*** It is this kind of joy that keeps a "terrible proselytizer" telling people about Jesus.* God is good!

A sweet anecdote. I have a few of them myself that demonstrate your approach doesn't always work but can actually repel. You're too stubborn to admit that.

Who does the missionary to Mexico proselytize to? Mexico is primarily Catholic.

[whag]

Sure. Most of my evangelism is one on one. The situation to which you refer will often draw people like Whag, who just love to antagonize.

If the preacher was a literalist fundamentalist, the question about where Cain's wife came from is perfectly legitimate. That you perceive it as antagonism says a lot about you.