Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[Mountain Man]

Paul isn't saying we need to go out of our way to seek persecution, so if that's how some Christians are interpreting it then they're wrong. However, if you live a Godly life and uphold the principles of scripture, you will inevitably butt heads with someone sooner or later. All Paul is saying is don't be surprised when it happenes.

Of course, Christians in much of the Western world have it pretty easy when you look at the violence that Christians in the Middle East are facing. Spending a few hours in a jail cell because you refused to grant homosexual marriage licenses is peanuts compared to getting your head cut off, or being burned alive.

[whag]

Paul isn't saying we need to go out of our way to seek persecution, so if that's how some Christians are interpreting it then they're wrong. However, if you live a Godly life and uphold the principles of scripture, you will inevitably butt heads with someone sooner or later. All Paul is saying is don't be surprised when it happenes.

Pretty much everyone who takes consistent principled stands experiences a "butting of heads" sooner or later. The amount you get, or whether you experience any at all, depends on the environment in which you act and behave.

My point is that conflict doesn't indicate anything happening supernaturally. Satan has nothing to do with our trials. People, rather, do the headbutting.

The context is key, and doesn't translate well to today. This is my objection to its application. I'd agree that Paul isn't explicitly saying look for persecution, but people like Cow Poke think Paul means that if you witness and preach boldly, you'll be butting heads regularly. If not, then what does "lately" in the old saying CP quoted mean?

"if you haven't bumped heads with the devil lately, maybe you and he are going in the same direction."

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ll=1#post22528

"Lately" implies as often as Timothy would have experienced it. That's just nonsense.

Of course, Christians in much of the Western world have it pretty easy when you look at the violence that Christians in the Middle East are facing. Spending a few hours in a jail cell because you refused to grant homosexual marriage licenses is peanuts compared to getting your head cut off, or being burned alive.

Well, yes, but not just Christians--Atheists, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Scientologists, etc. The hardship and conflict we experience is the default experience of being alive. Paul didn't understand that, or wasn't clear enough about what he meant, leading to Cow Poke's (and many others') misunderstanding of what a Christian life entails.

[tabibito]

In the milieu of Paul and Timothy - proclaiming the gospel would (almost) inevitably have life threatening consequences. In some parts of the world, it still does. The pockets of Western Culture (for want of a better word) + in the current era, where it can be done in relative safety are anomalies, and the "relative" reduces the further into the darker recesses of society that a Christian may walk. For the most part, the Christian, in the familiar societies, will be able to muddle through without striking any particular difficulties, but for most (if not all) there will be at least one occasion where it becomes necessary to take a stand on some issue.

[whag]

In the milieu of Paul and Timothy - proclaiming the gospel would (almost) inevitably have life threatening consequences. In some parts of the world, it still does. The pockets of Western Culture (for want of a better word) + in the current era, where it can be done in relative safety are anomalies, and the "relative" reduces the further into the darker recesses of society that a Christian may walk. For the most part, the Christian, in the familiar societies, will be able to muddle through without striking any particular difficulties, but for most (if not all) there will be at least one occasion where it becomes necessary to take a stand on some issue.

For the most part, any religionist or atheist who consistently takes a principled stand in a hostile environment will encounter opposition of some kind. That Timothy suffered persecution isn't particularly surprising. A bold presentation of any dogma in a predominately different culture will probably result in that response no matter the details of the messenger's message.

Persecutions aplenty all over the globe well before Judaism was a thing.

[tabibito]

True enough.