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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Where Do Moral Questions Stop?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, as an emergent property, do you think that thoughts are immaterial existing things that separate from the physical brain and float about in space? Btw, if that is what you believe, that thoughts are an emergent property of the physical brain, then where does the soul enter the picture?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAn image, in the original sense of the word, is not a thing that is seen, it is a thing that is imagined, which is why it is called an image.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTass I was speaking about your link. They do not see what I see. If I have an image of my dear mother in my mind, they can know which neurons I am using to create that image, but what they can not do is see my image. And I'm not saying that the physical brain doesn't cause thoughts, but that thoughts are something more and non-physical. Which is obvious since you can not see the image of my mom.Originally posted by seer View PostI have no idea if thoughts are local or non-local. And thoughts/mind/personality is the soul - probably.
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Except if I am wrong you are no more than a sock puppet to antecedent, non-rational, biological processes. But you don't believe that, you actually believe that you are rational. So your very behavior undermines your theory. And why should anyone believe a sock puppet that has no control over what it thinks, believes or spits out?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Thinker, is it not incoherent to believe that we can control thoughts or direct thoughts. I do that every day. I may have any number of desires or thoughts that present themselves and I can accept or reject them. I can have competing concepts and can choose between them using applied logic and reason. I believe that it is the soul that can control or direct said thoughts. If one wants a strictly materialistic model, the The Cogito Model seems to fit the bill.
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/cogito/
You are also confusing two different things:
(1) your thoughts are "free" to "choose"
(2) your thoughts control your body
(1) is libertarian free will and is logically incoherent. (2) is logically possible, but empirically false due to scientific evidence. Please do not conflate the issues.
At any time you want to make a logically coherent case for LFW, be my guest.
No, that is not what I asked, I asked - show that because you are determined to believe that A is true, that A is actually true, or that you can know that A is true. Think about what is actually being asked. Present a syllogism going from A being determined to A being true. BTW Thinker, many creatures survive just fine with out "logical reasoning?"
What does that mean? If our thoughts are causally impotent and brain chemicals are non-rational there is no logical way for rationality to emerge. The parts built a plane that can not fly.
Like I said free will is no more incoherent than you believing that you are rational.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by The Thinker View PostNo, you don't do that. Ever. Not one single thought you've ever had was your free will "choice." Every single thought popped into you mind without you being able to choose it. It is logically impossible to be otherwise. Thoughts are caused by your brain and then you become consciously aware of them later. You are simply delusional about this.
You are also confusing two different things:
(1) your thoughts are "free" to "choose"
(2) your thoughts control your body
(1) is libertarian free will and is logically incoherent. (2) is logically possible, but empirically false due to scientific evidence. Please do not conflate the issues.
At any time you want to make a logically coherent case for LFW, be my guest.
In cases where my belief matches reality, the reason why I would be determined is because it is true. The truth of the matter would be the causal factor that leads me to believe it is true. And I can compare it to evidence. You're still mistaken that "determined" means we're just a bunch of ping pong balls bounding around randomly. Under free will my thoughts cannot have causes, because if they did they'd be determined, and because of that LFW can never make sense or allow you to know the truth. Thoughts must have a cause to allow you to be rational, but if they have a cause they are determined. You're stuck.
If I think about a cat, a little cat is not going to appear in my brain. They brain simply has a way of creating those ideas via a complex interaction of neurons. Individual neurons don't need to be "rational" in the same way you think rationality exists. Rationality emerges in the same way that flight emerges as a property about airplanes.
But rationality is not a function of brain chemicals, and brain chemicals run the whole show. If our thoughts have no causal effect then we are left with non-rational chemicals - nothing else.
Yes it is, I'll prove it to you by declaring that you cannot make a coherent argument showing it is true. Can you meet this challenge?Last edited by seer; 10-19-2015, 11:30 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen most of mankind is deluded about this. So the forces of nature have once again deceived us - what else did they deceive us about?
First, as Mele discussed in his talk you are generalizing too much concerning the "scientific evidence" - and he gave good reasons for that. Second, if I didn't consciously reason and choose the red shirt I picked from a number of options this morning then what did? Brain chemicals? Why did they choose red for me instead of green?
Second, "you" are your brain. When "you" choose, it's your "brain" that chose. There is no "you" that is separate from your brain or that has any causal effect on your brain. That is just pure antiquated fantasy.
Wait, so thoughts (true thoughts) have a causal effect? Since when? Brain chemicals don't care about "truth." What are you talking about?
But rationality is not a function of brain chemicals, and brain chemicals run the whole show. If our thoughts have no causal effect then we are left with non-rational chemicals - nothing else.
Then we are at an impasse since you have not justified knowledge on any level.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen most of mankind is deluded about this. So the forces of nature have once again deceived us - what else did they deceive us about?
First, as Mele discussed in his talk you are generalizing too much concerning the "scientific evidence" - and he gave good reasons for that. Second, if I didn't consciously reason and choose the red shirt I picked from a number of options this morning then what did? Brain chemicals? Why did they choose red for me instead of green?
Wait, so thoughts (true thoughts) have a causal effect? Since when? Brain chemicals don't care about "truth." What are you talking about?
But rationality is not a function of brain chemicals, and brain chemicals run the whole show. If our thoughts have no causal effect then we are left with non-rational chemicals - nothing else.
Then we are at an impasse since you have not justified knowledge on any level.
I know, you don't care if you convince anyone, and you won't convince anyone either with that kind of empty argument, with mere assertions of "it seems that way to me, I want liberterian free will to be true, therefore it is true." If you believe you are a spirit, then define the spirit and how it functions, how it thinks in its own right, what need it has of a physical brain and how does it interact with the physical brain. If you don't have a plausible explanation for these things, then you are just fighting with windmills.Last edited by JimL; 10-19-2015, 08:01 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostExcept if I am wrong you are no more than a sock puppet to antecedent, non-rational, biological processes. But you don't believe that, you actually believe that you are rational. So your very behavior undermines your theory. And why should anyone believe a sock puppet that has no control over what it thinks, believes or spits out?
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen most of mankind is deluded about this. So the forces of nature have once again deceived us - what else did they deceive us about?Wait, so thoughts (true thoughts) have a causal effect? Since when? Brain chemicals don't care about "truth." What are you talking about?
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Originally posted by The Thinker View PostYes, most of mankind is deluded about this, as they are with god. That's because most people like you base your views on intuition, subjective experience, and well, faith.
Second, "you" are your brain. When "you" choose, it's your "brain" that chose. There is no "you" that is separate from your brain or that has any causal effect on your brain. That is just pure antiquated fantasy.
Well you already agreed that the brain processes are not the same thing as conscious thoughts. So you are a dualist. Correct?
No, the truth of the matter would be the sense data my brain interprets.
Rationality is not a function of the individual components of the brain, just like flight is not a function of the individual components of a plane. You seem to be willfully ignorant here. Anything you do that is rational is caused by the brain, so the brain is the decider.
I asked you to make a coherent argument showing that libertarian free will is true. Just as I predicted, you can't do it. Your view is incoherent and faith based and I've shown that to you several times already.Last edited by seer; 10-20-2015, 06:50 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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What does interplay mean Tass? Do our conscious thoughts play a causal role in the process? That is something Thinker has denied.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostDoes your ghost have a brain of its own by which it interprets the electro-chemical activity of the physical brain? If so what possible need has it of a physical brain? You need a coherent explanation for how that would work because merely asserting it in the face of evidence to the contrary is useless if you wish to convince anyone.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are joking right? We have no control over what we believe Thinker if you are correct. We don't base our views on anything - the brain chemicals do that for us. This is really idiotic.
Well you already agreed that the brain processes are not the same thing as conscious thoughts. So you are a dualist. Correct?
And you haven't presented a deductive argument yet. Since it is obvious that our brain chemicals can and do deceive us how do you logically go from being determined to believing A is true to A actually being true. Bridge that gap with a syllogism or admit that your position is not logical.
1. What your scientific evidence that mind or soul causes the physical brain? This violates quantum field theory, which is our best tested scientific theory.
2. List a chronological order of events whenever a person makes a "freely" willed decision from first to last.
3. Explain whether you believe things begin to exist without a cause.
Why don't you try and answer these questions, at least number 2. In order to test whether A is true, it is either logically so, or evidentially so. That's how you know. Given "free will" how is it that our souls deceive us? What would make a soul deceive?
Nonsense - the components of a plane all have a physical role in the process - what physical role do our thoughts have - BE SPECIFIC PLEASE.
And your position would be just as incoherent since you can not logically bridge the gap from being determined to believing that A is true to A actually being true.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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