Witnessing to Atheists

[Juvenal]

The position on Pascal's Wager from an Annihilationist view such as mine is if you don't believe in God, no loss, you go into non-existence just as you believe.

Dear JohnnyP,

My position on annihilationists is that they're half right.

But why do so many atheists still complain that God is unfair to send them into a non-existence they already expect? That's what I don't get. To me that shows an underlying belief in eternal life, and a jealousy that it is not given to them.

[whag]

The position on Pascal's Wager from an Annihilationist view such as mine is if you don't believe in God, no loss, you go into non-existence just as you believe. But why do so many atheists still complain that God is unfair to send them into a non-existence they already expect?

That's what I don't get. To me that shows an underlying belief in eternal life, and a jealousy that it is not given to them.

annihilationist or not Pascal's Wager is obscene.

some of Christopher Hitchens' last debates are his best. here he debates David Berlinski. it contains the most well-articulated objection to PW ever uttered. it's toward the end, but the whole thing is worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-A4...e_gdata_player

[seer]

annihilationist or not Pascal's Wager, is obscene.

one of Christopher Hitchens' last debates are his best. here he debates David Berlinski. it contains the most well-articulated objection to PW ever uttered. it's toward the end, but the whole thing is worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-A4...e_gdata_player

No Whag it is not obscene. But I look at it in the reverse - if I'm not correct and there is no afterlife - what have I lost?

[whag]

No Whag it is not obscene. But I look at it in the reverse - if I'm not correct and there is no afterlife - what have I lost?

you needed the wager to kick start belief? if your belief came about independent of the wager, then surely you can understand why the gambit is obscene.

[shunyadragon]

The position on Pascal's Wager from an Annihilationist view such as mine is if you don't believe in God, no loss, you go into non-existence just as you believe. But why do so many atheists still complain that God is unfair to send them into a non-existence they already expect?

Pascal's Wager is a fool's fear wager. If Judaism or Islam is true, your bacon for Satan. No, atheists do not claim God is unfair. That is another foolish anecdote.

That's what I don't get. To me that shows an underlying belief in eternal life, and a jealousy that it is not given to them.

Again, a fool's anecdote.

[shunyadragon]

No Whag it is not obscene. But I look at it in the reverse - if I'm not correct and there is no afterlife - what have I lost?

Another fool's delusion of Pascal's Wager.

[shunyadragon]

Pascal's wager isn't really that good in that it just picks between two worldviews. So, better argument? Because quite a lot of arguments from both sides seem to be circular. Is it correct that both sides use arguments that only apply if their side is correct?

In reality it picks between a number of possible choices of world view. If either Judaism or Islam are correct, your bacon for Satan. If Hinduism is correct you may come back as a mouse and start over.

[whag]

Another fool's delusion of Pascal's Wager.

Hitchens on Pascal's wager:

"I have two comments on this. First, it's religious hucksterism of the cheapest and nastiest kind. "What have you gotta loose I've got a good offer for you, come on baby just lie a little"; no, don't talk to me like that, and don't call it piety when you do, or prepare to have piety despised. Second, Bertrand Russell when answering this question said 'Lord, you did not give us enough evidence', I would go a little further and say, look boss, if it's true what your fans say about you and you are indeed an infinitely kind, forgiving, all-fatherly deity, do you not have a little room in your obviously capacious heart for someone who just couldn't bring himself to believe in you? Someone who really, honestly, truly couldn't, as opposed to someone who may spend half of their lives on their knees making false and fawning professions of faith because Pascal told them it was a good bet. Which is us is the more moral? Which of us is the more honest? Which of us is the more courageous? Which of us has the bluest eyes and is the most sexually attractive? Which of us has the real charisma? I'm only asking..."

[seer]

Another fool's delusion of Pascal's Wager.

That didn't answer the question...

And you have your own hell Homer

http://www.bahai.us/heaven-and-hell/

[Teallaura]

First rule of arguing law: if the law is on your side, argue law; if the law isn't on your side, pound the table harder.

[shunyadragon]

Hitchens on Pascal's wager:

"I have two comments on this. First, it's religious hucksterism of the cheapest and nastiest kind. "What have you gotta loose I've got a good offer for you, come on baby just lie a little"; no, don't talk to me like that, and don't call it piety when you do, or prepare to have piety despised. Second, Bertrand Russell when answering this question said 'Lord, you did not give us enough evidence', I would go a little further and say, look boss, if it's true what your fans say about you and you are indeed an infinitely kind, forgiving, all-fatherly deity, do you not have a little room in your obviously capacious heart for someone who just couldn't bring himself to believe in you? Someone who really, honestly, truly couldn't, as opposed to someone who may spend half of their lives on their knees making false and fawning professions of faith because Pascal told them it was a good bet. Which is us is the more moral? Which of us is the more honest? Which of us is the more courageous? Which of us has the bluest eyes and is the most sexually attractive? Which of us has the real charisma? I'm only asking..."

Excellent, 50 kudos to you!!!!

[shunyadragon]

That didn't answer the question...

And you have your own hell Homer

http://www.bahai.us/heaven-and-hell/

Very good!! What's your point???

[JohnnyP]

annihilationist or not Pascal's Wager is obscene.

some of Christopher Hitchens' last debates are his best. here he debates David Berlinski. it contains the most well-articulated objection to PW ever uttered. it's toward the end, but the whole thing is worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-A4...e_gdata_player

Pascal's Wager is a fool's fear wager. If Judaism or Islam is true, your bacon for Satan. No, atheists do not claim God is unfair. That is another foolish anecdote.

Again, a fool's anecdote.

I understand you're responding to the position of ECT. But I still encounter reactions to the Annihilationist position implying that God -- if He exists -- is unfair to give unbelievers non-existence simply because they made the wrong choice.

I acknowledge jealousy may not always be the motive, it may just be to argue that such a God is unfair, believers are full of themselves, or for other reasons. So I stand corrected on that part of my statement.

[whag]

I understand you're responding to the position of ECT. But I still encounter reactions to the Annihilationist position implying that God -- if He exists -- is unfair to give unbelievers non-existence simply because they made the wrong choice.

I acknowledge jealousy may not always be the motive, it may just be to argue that such a God is unfair, believers are full of themselves, or for other reasons. So I stand corrected on that part of my statement.

christopher Hitchens objection isn't based on ECT but the illogic of belief being a virtuous action that impresses god. that I believe is the point, not the excessive cruelty of hellfire.

[JohnnyP]

christopher Hitchens objection isn't based on ECT but the illogic of belief being a virtuous action that impresses god. that I believe is the point, not the excessive cruelty of hellfire.

Pascal goes on to say that if you sincerely don't believe, then "fake it 'till you make it" which is an idea heavily promoted today in 12-Step groups, which is not to say pretend or lie that you believe, but rather, do things as if you believe in order to follow the example of believers. Do what they do. Pray all day to whatever God may be there if there is one, for Him to give you faith. And then by doing so you may also gain humility which fosters faith.

So it's saying that if you really want to be able to claim that you've exhausted all resources, examined all the evidence, done all you can to prove to yourself that you can't believe, then it is what it is. I don't personally know who has done what, but I've encountered my share of atheists who say, "Well I prayed for a while but nothing happened so I stopped." To which I would reply, pray until the day you die, you might get an answer a split second before you pass -- that may be when God decides for you to believe. That is if you really want to be able to claim that you did all you could to make a sincere effort in knowing what there is to know to make an informed decision about it.