The Honest Atheist?

[Doug Shaver]

they don't want to bear the burden of proof in a debate, which is, of course, cowardly and intellectually dishonest. I've even heard atheists and agnostics go so far as to unreasonably claim that lack of belief in God is the default position and that the burden rests entirely on the theist to disprove it.

We have our stupid apologists, just like Christians have theirs.

If you ask me what I believe, I will tell you what I believe. If you ask me why I believe it, I will tell you why I believe it. If you insist about arguing about what label I should stick on those beliefs, you'll be changing the subject.

[Doug Shaver]

Still we all know some atheists are also very much antitheists, not simply lacking belief in theism, so there's not any relevance to that point anyway as applied to this issue.

The issue, if I correctly understand the OP, is whether whether any atheists are being honest. I'll admit right away that some are not. I'll also admit that anyone who accepts scriptural inerrancy must believe that (a) none of us are honest and (b) nothing we say to the contrary can prove otherwise.

[JohnnyP]

The issue, if I correctly understand the OP, is whether whether any atheists are being honest. I'll admit right away that some are not. I'll also admit that anyone who accepts scriptural inerrancy must believe that (a) none of us are honest and (b) nothing we say to the contrary can prove otherwise.

When it comes to being honest about belief in God, I think the parable of the sower for one illustrates that doubt in God comes from Satan the father of lies, like a catch-22: if you won't ask God to protect you from Satan, Satan will cause you to doubt God, and then you won't ask God to protect you from Satan...I don't think that's always a conscious choice to follow a lie though, often more like just going along with day-to-day (worldly) things and not seeing any practical reason for belief. I tend to take these at their word, especially when the Bible says Satan snatches away belief, what hidden belief is there to be honest about?

Then there's the suffering tragedy or abuse in church thing, some may claim to be atheists but deep down believe in God, they just hate Him. I think these are the really hateful types like Rational Response.

But in general all religion aside, I often find atheists to be more ethical and honest than some Christians, take for instance one I've been debating with here that knows he's wrong but won't admit it, really dishonest. With people like that I wonder if they are honest about believing in God. So I don't agree with any general idea that theists/honest, atheists/dishonest, there's a lot of gray area in there.

[Doug Shaver]

You have found a very charitable interpretation of the relevant scriptures. I appreciate that.

[JohnnyP]

You have found a very charitable interpretation of the relevant scriptures. I appreciate that.

I have some really close atheist friends, we don't really talk religion, but they are stand-up guys all the way, focused on family, integrity, doing good with their lives. I like to hope everyone has a chance to believe after we die, I take a purgatory position after death even for many believers to resolve things left over from life, then whoever refuses that just goes off into non-existence, no eternal torment. I figure there's a reason for everything, people are gonna believe when they are gonna believe, or not, in the long run it doesn't change much.

[Mountain Man]

I have some really close atheist friends, we don't really talk religion, but they are stand-up guys all the way, focused on family, integrity, doing good with their lives. I like to hope everyone has a chance to believe after we die, I take a purgatory position after death even for many believers to resolve things left over from life, then whoever refuses that just goes off into non-existence, no eternal torment. I figure there's a reason for everything, people are gonna believe when they are gonna believe, or not, in the long run it doesn't change much.

The Bible says that after we die, we will stand in judgment before God (Hebrews 9:27). There is no purgatory or "second chance".

[shunyadragon]

The Bible says that after we die, we will stand in judgment before God (Hebrews 9:27). There is no purgatory or "second chance".

True, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it. It is not meaningful if you are atheist, Roman Church, agnostic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or one of the many beliefs that do not share what you believe.

[Cow Poke]

True, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it. It is not meaningful if you are atheist, Roman Church, agnostic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or one of the many beliefs that do not share what you believe.

Well, yeah, it still applies, you just won't be very happy.

[JohnnyP]

The Bible says that after we die, we will stand in judgment before God (Hebrews 9:27). There is no purgatory or "second chance".

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The purpose here is to say that Jesus doesn't have to physically die over and over again for the sins of many, like sacrificing an animal over and over every year. The focus is on a general idea of most men dying a physical death once, it's not meant to be a detailed description of exactly what happens after death or to say there are no exceptions: it's not a hard rule that all men die once, have no activity, and then go into the Great Judgment.

For example Moses and Elijah had activity after death visiting Jesus in the Transfiguration. Saints in Revelation 20:6 don't even have to go the Great Judgment. And what happened to Lazarus, did he live forever or did he die a second time?

Of course I could just as easily argue that the judgment refers to judging if men are going to Hades/Purgatory (Rich Man) or Paradise/Abraham's Bosom (Lazarus), not to the Great Judgment, but you get the idea.

---

Specifically about a biblical Purgatory (not really to do with the RCC tradition of it):

1 Peter 3:18-21 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,

...when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For some reason people get the idea Jesus is preaching to angels that came down and took wives in Noah's day from Genesis 6:2, probably from Jude 1:6. But it's not relating spirits in prison to angels. That's wildly random anyway if you think about it, we're talking about salvation of men and out of nowhere comes this bit about angels in Noah's day.

Actually, it's saying that by his death Jesus went to save spirits in Hades, and that salvation is like coming up out of the water in resurrection with Jesus. Thus it draws our attention to Hades being like underwater, and salvation coming out of it. Which then leads us to Jesus comparing his death to Jonah's being in the "Hades" of the fish. Jonah had been disobedient to God and stuck in a prison, why would Jesus have to go somewhere like that if he wasn't disobedient? Well, God's Word released Jonah from the fish:

DISOBEDIENCE IN LIFE

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

REPENTANCE IN HADES

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

GATES OF HADES OPENED

Jonah 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So the fish as Hades here is actually symbolic of the Serpent, where of course disobedient men are cursed to be dust in death, and he is cursed to swallow them up, like the fish swallowed Jonah:

Genesis 3:19 ...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3:14 ...upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Finally, we can see at the Great Judgment the dead come from two places, the Sea and Hades:

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Again relating to the story of Jonah, if the fish didn't come along he'd remain in the water, symbolically the Sea/Abyss/Bottomless Pit, and just die in his sins. I'd relate these dead in the Sea to perhaps those damned for the Unpardonable Sin, they don't have a second chance to be forgiven in the afterlife.

Whereas Jonah was saved by the fish as Hades, the second chance, where if Jonah had not repented he'd have stayed in the fish and the sea and died anyway, symbolically, remaining in Hades and the Sea which has now turned into the Lake of Fire. Which I simply view as non-existence, no eternal torment.

As a side topic and to anticipate any disagreement:

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If we ask, how can Jesus go to Hades when he's going to be in Paradise?

1. Do we maintain that 3 days/nights means a literal 72 hours, or only a portion of it? Could Jesus go to Paradise then to Hades?
2. If Jesus is God, at what point after his life as a man can he be omnipresent?

Anyway, I'd conclude that there is more biblical evidence of Purgatory than not, even though many Protestants just see any notion of it as a Catholic thing and dismiss it as such.

[Mountain Man]

True, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it. It is not meaningful if you are atheist, Roman Church, agnostic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or one of the many beliefs that do not share what you believe.

"Some people think that if you step off a 10-story building then you'll fall to your death. That's true, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it."

[shunyadragon]

"Some people think that if you step off a 10-story building then you'll fall to your death. That's true, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it."

Yes, the Theory of gravity always will apply,
whether ten stories or sixty,
but in reality we do not know why.
The theory of gravity remains a mystery.

As to where we go when reasons path ends,
remains a mystery without end,
some believe it is back again, and again.
others believe it is streets of gold or Satan's BBQ in the end.

Some say nothing is the blessing,
others just say don't know.
most say their way is best bet going.
More then likely nobody for sure knows.

God is not a chess player
with the white pieces.
God is the sea,
and we are the fishes.

[Doug Shaver]

True, sort of, but it only applies if you believe it.

Why should I think it's even sort of true? Why should I think it applies to anyone at all? Why should I think that whoever wrote it knew anything about what happens to us after we die?

[Tassman]

We're not even talking about arguments and evidence for God but merely the concept that he could exist. Atheists actively reject and argue against this proposition, so I find their claim that they merely lack belief to be disingenious.

OF COURSE we’re “talking about arguments and evidence for God”. Without it the "concept" that God could exist is as meaningless as the “concept” that the invisible pink unicorn could exist – a proposition so improbable that it can be reasonable discounted as impossible.

Oh, and I already pegged your argument several pages back: "Every self-declared atheist you will ever meet has, at some point, been presented with the idea that God exists and has rejected that idea for one reason or another. They will claim that it's a rational conclusion based on a supposed lack of evidence.

Exactly! It’s a concept based on a lack of substantive evidence. The burden of proof rests with you as the one making the claim.

The scripture tells us it's because of their sin and pride. I know atheists don't like it, but I have to go with scripture on this."

Well the scriptures would say that wouldn't they. What else are they going to say: “There’s no good reason for believing this stuff, but believe it anyway?”

You say there's no evidence for God. What you're really saying is that you have rejected whatever arguments and evidence you've encountered meaning that you can't claim a passive disbelief in God's existence.

No, what I’m “really saying” is that I don’t give credence to anything for which there is no good evidence – and invisible omnipotent deities rank high on the list, right up there with invisible pink unicorns.

I guess what it comes down is how do you have an honest conversation with someone who won't even be honest about what he really believes?

Couldn’t agree more!

The Bible says that after we die, we will stand in judgment before God (Hebrews 9:27). There is no purgatory or "second chance".

Why would you believe any of that? How could the author of Hebrews know anything about whether or not we have a post-mortem existence let alone know provide details?

[shunyadragon]

Why should I think it's even sort of true? Why should I think it applies to anyone at all? Why should I think that whoever wrote it knew anything about what happens to us after we die?

Your over stating my use of 'sort of.' Read the poem.

[Mountain Man]

OF COURSEwould

No, we're not talking about arguments and evidence. Positing that it's possible that God exists is not an argument, it's a premise. A description of God is not an argument, it's a definition. Before we can even start exploiring the arguments and evidence for God, a person must be at least open to the idea that a maximally great being could exist. For an atheist to actively reject even that basic premise and then claim that he merely has a passive lack of belief is intellectually dishonest. This is why I say that you can't have an honest conversation with someone who won't be honest about what they really believe.

As for your question about Hebrews, perhaps you're familiar with the concept of divine revelation. Or am I giving you undue credit for your intelligence?