Miracles

[seer]

Though Norm is correct, proof is on the burden of the claimant. You are the one who demanded others to disprove miracles.

In reality the claim of the supernatural or miraculous is an open ended anecdotal claim without resolution.

But I'm not claiming anything. In my case I presented the facts of my experience - you can do what you will with those facts. And your choice about what to do with those facts is completely irrelevant to me and completely irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

[Enjolras]

Enjolras -

1. Miracle claims by Muslims (or whoever) need to be investigated and evaluated on a case by case basis, just as all such claims should be, before we decide that the claim might well be a miracle.

Agreed

But lets say that Muslims (or whoever) have some miracle claims as well attested as any Christian claim. So what? That's not incompatible with Christianity being true, in fact the opposite.

I'm wondering why you would say that? When one considers the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal, the lesson seems to be that only the true God can perform miraculous wonders. Why would the true God perform miracles for members of other religions, when such miracles would serve to confirm them in their delusions?

2. Exposing some frauds doesn't show that all are frauds, any more than finding some forged banknotes means that all banknotes are forged.

True. This was only one of many reasons I have given for considering miraculous claims with considerable skepticism.

3. We can multiply lists of possible reasons why we could be wrong about something, but that does nothing to disprove any particular claim unless it can be shown that the error in reasoning applies in that particular case. Such a broad general skepticism also undermines things like the credibility of scientific research, so it 'proves' too much.

Not sure what you mean here. How would recognition of cognitive biases undermine science?

4. We have to look at the whole package of evidence in evaluating a worldview. Miracle claims would be only a part of that. There are lots of other reasons to doubt the credibility of Mormonism, so we can reasonably reject it as being true apart from it's claims of miracles.

Indeed. This is the view taken by many skeptics of traditional Christianity.

5. Miracles can be evidence for particular people that God is real and both knows them and cares about them.

Here's where confirmation bias takes place. People take miracles as positive evidence for God, but they don't take lack of miracles as counter-evidence.

Sure. And likewise, that we have some natural explanations for some miracle claims doesn't mean that all miracle claims therefore have (one day) a natural explanation.

Ok.

7. God doesn't seem to operate like that. He seems to want people to be involved in solving their own problems, by and large.

Not according to Professor Keener. According to him, God performs miracles quite frequently, and he has written 1248 pages documenting such claims. In the video, he states:

• The same range of miraculous events that occurred in the NT are happening today.
• 200 million people in 10 countries claim to have witnessed miracles.
• 1/3 of Christians worldwide claim to have witnessed divine healing.
• 1/2 of all conversions in China today are due to divine healing; some would put that figure at 90%!
• 80% of the growth in the church worldwide is due to divine healing.
• Millions of people throughout India and China have converted because of miracle healing.
• In the 3rd and 4th centuries, the leading cause of conversions was due to healings and exorcisms, and this has continued through the centuries.
• At least a dozen people Keener documents in the video have in this day been raised from the dead!

So are you disagreeing with Keener here?

What would happen to all the people employed by the hospital?

Seriously? I know quite a few people in the health care profession, and every one of them would gladly find new careers if it meant their patients would be cured of their diseases.

We can change up the question, if you like. Why not have congregations pray for all the dead in the local cemetery to come back to life? Then we could still preserve the jobs of local morticians. According to Keener, God does raise the dead, even today. So why doesn't he do it where people could actually verify the truth of such claims, instead of random anecdotes about people in remote localities? Think of the conversions that would result. Keener claims that all but one member of a village in Africa converted to Christianity when the local pastor prayed for it not to rain for 4 days. Why not have churches pray for the inhabitants of Arlington Cemetery to be raised? The entire nation would be converted. If one takes Keener's claims seriously, it is difficult to see why such this would be out of bounds.

Would the church get swamped by people seeking miraculous healing too, church members get greedy and power-hungry - Psst! I'll pay you to put my son at the front of the queue for prayer - in short, there are a whole bunch of prosaic practical reasons why such a thing could actually be counter-productive for God's point of view.

Then Keener's God seems to be going about things the wrong way. According to him, millions are converting due to miracles, but in your reasoning this would be problematic.

Look at how many people followed Jesus in the Bible just for a feed, or a miracle, or to see 'the show', rather than because they accepted Him as their Messiah.

One of Keener's points is that it was the belief in miracles and wonders that got the church going in the first place. This is widely recognized by scholars, since even Bart Ehrman has said the same thing.

[whag]

What would happen to all the people employed by the hospital?

What an objection.

[Raphael]

By the way, what's a Protestant Catholic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU#t=719

That's at 11:59 if the URL doesn't take you to the correct time.

An Anglican

[Raphael]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash. But this is why I can easily believe the majority of the claims from Keener's book (and BTW he did include medical notes and references where possible, so Tassmann objection that Keener is a NT scholar, not a medical professional is patently absurd)

My sister (who my folks finally managed to adopt when she was 11 when they got the laws of South Africa changed to allow adoption into a family of a different denomination) was fostered by my folks from when she was a few months old (she was so weak when my Mom brought her home, that they weren't exactly sure if she would survive the night). she had many medical problems, one of which was that her legs were so badly crippled that at around 18 months of age, the doctors were talking about her having to go into orthopaedic leg irons for the rest of her life and she was unable to stand properly, let alone walk (as you know most children should be walking by that age).

My folks were involved with the Charismatic Renewal at this time (around 1975/6 my sister was born in '74, I was born in '80). They took her to a prayer meeting, my sister was prayed for, her legs straightened , and she walked that evening (my Mom recalls that my sister walked, sat down, looked at her feet, got up, walked again, sat down again, looked at her feet again a number of times trying to puzzle it out). 40 years later, my sister still has no issues with her legs or feet.

This was not psychosomatic (an 18 month old, she wasn't faking, they had a more than one medical opinion confirming it, and they could visible see the deformity). There has been no "relapse" (I think after 40 years we can safely say that). And I do trust the testimony of all the witness (my folks and my 3 older brothers plus others)

What possible naturalistic explanation could you have for this?


(unfortunately I san't offer any concrete evidence, the doctors in question are long since deceased, and my folks didn't see a reason to keep a copy of the medical records and no video as my folks didn't even own a TV until after I was born let alone a video camera, so I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

[whag]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash. But this is why I can easily believe the majority of the claims from Keener's book (and BTW he did include medical notes and references where possible, so Tassmann objection that Keener is a NT scholar, not a medical professional is patently absurd)

My sister (who my folks finally managed to adopt when she was 11 when they got the laws of South Africa changed to allow adoption into a family of a different denomination) was fostered by my folks from when she was a few months old (she was so weak when my Mom brought her home, that they weren't exactly sure if she would survive the night). she had many medical problems, one of which was that her legs were so badly crippled that at around 18 months of age, the doctors were talking about her having to go into orthopaedic leg irons for the rest of her life and she was unable to stand properly, let alone walk (as you know most children should be walking by that age).

My folks were involved with the Charismatic Renewal at this time (around 1975/6 my sister was born in '74, I was born in '80). They took her to a prayer meeting, my sister was prayed for, her legs straightened , and she walked that evening (my Mom recalls that my sister walked, sat down, looked at her feet, got up, walked again, sat down again, looked at her feet again a number of times trying to puzzle it out). 40 years later, my sister still has no issues with her legs or feet.

This was not psychosomatic (an 18 month old, she wasn't faking, they had a more than one medical opinion confirming it, and they could visible see the deformity). There has been no "relapse" (I think after 40 years we can safely say that). And I do trust the testimony of all the witness (my folks and my 3 older brothers plus others)

What possible naturalistic explanation could you have for this?


(unfortunately I san't offer any concrete evidence, the doctors in question are long since deceased, and my folks didn't see a reason to keep a copy of the medical records and no video as my folks didn't even own a TV until after I was born let alone a video camera, so I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

That's the the difficulty of miracle stories as an evangelism tool. Most people being default skeptics like Thomas, regard 2nd hand accounts as convincing. What should a miracle hope to accomplish outside its immediate effect on the recipient and witnesses?

I think it's unreasonable for you to expect us to believe any 2nd hand story with no evidence. That's what we'd have to do if we accepted your miracle story.

[shunyadragon]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash. But this is why I can easily believe the majority of the claims from Keener's book (and BTW he did include medical notes and references where possible, so Tassmann objection that Keener is a NT scholar, not a medical professional is patently absurd)

My sister (who my folks finally managed to adopt when she was 11 when they got the laws of South Africa changed to allow adoption into a family of a different denomination) was fostered by my folks from when she was a few months old (she was so weak when my Mom brought her home, that they weren't exactly sure if she would survive the night). she had many medical problems, one of which was that her legs were so badly crippled that at around 18 months of age, the doctors were talking about her having to go into orthopaedic leg irons for the rest of her life and she was unable to stand properly, let alone walk (as you know most children should be walking by that age).

My folks were involved with the Charismatic Renewal at this time (around 1975/6 my sister was born in '74, I was born in '80). They took her to a prayer meeting, my sister was prayed for, her legs straightened , and she walked that evening (my Mom recalls that my sister walked, sat down, looked at her feet, got up, walked again, sat down again, looked at her feet again a number of times trying to puzzle it out). 40 years later, my sister still has no issues with her legs or feet.

This was not psychosomatic (an 18 month old, she wasn't faking, they had a more than one medical opinion confirming it, and they could visible see the deformity). There has been no "relapse" (I think after 40 years we can safely say that). And I do trust the testimony of all the witness (my folks and my 3 older brothers plus others)

What possible naturalistic explanation could you have for this?


(unfortunately I san't offer any concrete evidence, the doctors in question are long since deceased, and my folks didn't see a reason to keep a copy of the medical records and no video as my folks didn't even own a TV until after I was born let alone a video camera, so I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

Unfortunately without the evidence this represents nothing more then many other anecdotal claims of the miraculous. I will also assume documentation and medical records were possible at the time of this claim.

At present there is no need to come up with a natural explanation until the documentation has been provided.

[Adrift]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash. But this is why I can easily believe the majority of the claims from Keener's book (and BTW he did include medical notes and references where possible, so Tassmann objection that Keener is a NT scholar, not a medical professional is patently absurd)

My sister (who my folks finally managed to adopt when she was 11 when they got the laws of South Africa changed to allow adoption into a family of a different denomination) was fostered by my folks from when she was a few months old (she was so weak when my Mom brought her home, that they weren't exactly sure if she would survive the night). she had many medical problems, one of which was that her legs were so badly crippled that at around 18 months of age, the doctors were talking about her having to go into orthopaedic leg irons for the rest of her life and she was unable to stand properly, let alone walk (as you know most children should be walking by that age).

My folks were involved with the Charismatic Renewal at this time (around 1975/6 my sister was born in '74, I was born in '80). They took her to a prayer meeting, my sister was prayed for, her legs straightened , and she walked that evening (my Mom recalls that my sister walked, sat down, looked at her feet, got up, walked again, sat down again, looked at her feet again a number of times trying to puzzle it out). 40 years later, my sister still has no issues with her legs or feet.

This was not psychosomatic (an 18 month old, she wasn't faking, they had a more than one medical opinion confirming it, and they could visible see the deformity). There has been no "relapse" (I think after 40 years we can safely say that). And I do trust the testimony of all the witness (my folks and my 3 older brothers plus others)

What possible naturalistic explanation could you have for this?


(unfortunately I san't offer any concrete evidence, the doctors in question are long since deceased, and my folks didn't see a reason to keep a copy of the medical records and no video as my folks didn't even own a TV until after I was born let alone a video camera, so I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

I think one of the awesome things about this is that, while others may not be convinced by the anecdotal nature of the event, it obviously affected you, and your belief in God, and who knows how many other people's lives it touched by your family sharing this testimony.

[Enjolras]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash. But this is why I can easily believe the majority of the claims from Keener's book (and BTW he did include medical notes and references where possible, so Tassmann objection that Keener is a NT scholar, not a medical professional is patently absurd)

My sister (who my folks finally managed to adopt when she was 11 when they got the laws of South Africa changed to allow adoption into a family of a different denomination) was fostered by my folks from when she was a few months old (she was so weak when my Mom brought her home, that they weren't exactly sure if she would survive the night). she had many medical problems, one of which was that her legs were so badly crippled that at around 18 months of age, the doctors were talking about her having to go into orthopaedic leg irons for the rest of her life and she was unable to stand properly, let alone walk (as you know most children should be walking by that age).

My folks were involved with the Charismatic Renewal at this time (around 1975/6 my sister was born in '74, I was born in '80). They took her to a prayer meeting, my sister was prayed for, her legs straightened , and she walked that evening (my Mom recalls that my sister walked, sat down, looked at her feet, got up, walked again, sat down again, looked at her feet again a number of times trying to puzzle it out). 40 years later, my sister still has no issues with her legs or feet.

This was not psychosomatic (an 18 month old, she wasn't faking, they had a more than one medical opinion confirming it, and they could visible see the deformity). There has been no "relapse" (I think after 40 years we can safely say that). And I do trust the testimony of all the witness (my folks and my 3 older brothers plus others)

What possible naturalistic explanation could you have for this?


(unfortunately I san't offer any concrete evidence, the doctors in question are long since deceased, and my folks didn't see a reason to keep a copy of the medical records and no video as my folks didn't even own a TV until after I was born let alone a video camera, so I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

Obviously, I don't know what happened in this particular case, but I have already given a few reasons why one should be skeptical of such claims. Here's another: our memories are unreliable:

"" (http://aeon.co/magazine/society/how-...f-bad-science/)

You have given us a few details about a story from 40 years ago, about an event that occurred before you yourself were born. How do you really know what happened? You trust your parents and brothers, but I'm sure they have told and retold this story many times over the years, perhaps inadvertently adding to or taking away details from the story. Maybe your sister wasn't really as badly crippled as they remember. Or maybe she was. It's impossible to say.

How do you explain the fact that stories of such healings are so random? How do you explain the countless instances of prayers gone unanswered? If God really loves us and answers our prayers, why don't miracles happen every time you pray? Mark 11:24 states: "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." It will be yours. Yet, we know this is not how prayer works, despite Jesus' very clear teaching that it does. Why is that?

[Raphael]

That's the the difficulty of miracle stories as an evangelism tool. Most people being default skeptics like Thomas, regard 2nd hand accounts as convincing. What should a miracle hope to accomplish outside its immediate effect on the recipient and witnesses?

I don't use the account of my sister's healing as a tool for evangelism. But I would expect witnesses of the event to be atleast moved to investiage Christianity and possibly become Christians because of what they witnessed.

I think it's unreasonable for you to expect us to believe any 2nd hand story with no evidence. That's what we'd have to do if we accepted your miracle story.

Please learn to read, I specifically stated that because I cannot provide the hard evidence I do not expect you to believe it.

I also stated that because of it, I (meaning me personally) can accept the accounts listed by Keener.

[Raphael]

Unfortunately without the evidence this represents nothing more then many other anecdotal claims of the miraculous. I will also assume documentation and medical records were possible at the time of this claim.

Yes they were.

At present there is no need to come up with a natural explanation until the documentation has been provided.

Nice dodge. when I discussed prior to the Great Crash, I was told (presuming my account was accurate) there would some naturalist explanation for it that we don't have yet, but no need to bring God into it.

[NormATive]

I have zero need to prove anything...

That's very fortunate for you because it turns out that you can't.

NORM

[NormATive]

God doesn't seem to operate like that. He seems to want people to be involved in solving their own problems, by and large. What would happen to all the people employed by the hospital? Would the church get swamped by people seeking miraculous healing too, church members get greedy and power-hungry - Psst! I'll pay you to put my son at the front of the queue for prayer - in short, there are a whole bunch of prosaic practical reasons why such a thing could actually be counter-productive for God's point of view. Look at how many people followed Jesus in the Bible just for a feed, or a miracle, or to see 'the show', rather than because they accepted Him as their Messiah.

Yeah, I guess my Mom didn't try hard enough to cure herself of cancer.

What makes you think that God would make all the sick people "cue up" for cures? Couldn't It just zap them all well in an instant; in a twinkling of an eye? Or better yet; how about not letting them get ill in the first place?

Seriously? Your answer is that sick people are there so that doctors and nurses can have employment? I hope you are not planning on running for government office on a "jobs" platform.

You're not really helping your God's case much.

NORM

[NormATive]

I'd posted this before on TWeb, but it was obviously lost in the Big Crash....I don't expect you to believe the word of some random stranger on the net)

Where did this take place? It sounds very similar to one of the first cases Ole Anthony (of the Trinity Foundation in Texas) investigated for his series on fraudulent "healing" cases. Ole is famous for his expose on Benny Hinn and revealing his outright fraud and lies. DatelineNBC based a program on Anthony's findings. It's surprisingly easy to falsify medical records and even x-rays.

BTW, I am happy your sister enjoys a normal, healthy life. Often, the real victims of these fraudulent healings are the very people they portend to "help," and are totally innocent. There are some very huge egos involved in the whole faith healing scam.

NORM

[Raphael]

Where did this take place? It sounds very similar to one of the first cases Ole Anthony (of the Trinity Foundation in Texas) investigated for his series on fraudulent "healing" cases. Ole is famous for his expose on Benny Hinn and revealing his outright fraud and lies. DatelineNBC based a program on Anthony's findings. It's surprisingly easy to falsify medical records and even x-rays.

BTW, I am happy your sister enjoys a normal, healthy life. Often, the real victims of these fraudulent healings are the very people they portend to "help," and are totally innocent. There are some very huge egos involved in the whole faith healing scam.

NORM

Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa. And it wasn't a big faith healing rally. It was a normal old (Charismatic) prayer meeting. And it was not a fraudulent healing.