Originally posted by Adrift
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIf one believes that time was created at the Big Bang (as the Big Bang theory seems to indicate), then God must have existed causally prior to the existence of time, thus, timeless.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostI'm perfectly open to discussing a definition of 'existence' which does not involve time, if you have one.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostDo you think that time is past eternal?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostI do not. I prefer past-finite models, though I acknowledge that the work of cosmology in this area is far from conclusive.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo you would have no problem with the idea of time coming into existence?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostWith the idea of the cosmos coming into existence? I tend to dislike the phrase "coming into existence" for the cosmos, as it implies that there was a time during which the cosmos did not exist, and that is incoherent.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut if the past is finite then there was state or condition where time did not exist."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThere cannot be a state or condition before that.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt seems to me that this is more a limitation of language than anything else. I mean if you believe in a finite past then there must have been some kind of condition or state before the first moment of time, even if that condition was nothingness.
There doesn't need to be a condition or state before the first moment of time any more than there needs to be a condition or state north of the North Pole."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostOnce again, that is completely incoherent. It doesn't make any sense. If there was something before time t, then time t cannot be the first moment of time.
There doesn't need to be a condition or state before the first moment of time any more than there needs to be a condition or state north of the North Pole.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt seems to me that this is more a limitation of language than anything else. I mean if you believe in a finite past then there must have been some kind of condition or state before the first moment of time, even if that condition was nothingness.
But I don't know. Maybe not.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI don't think its really a matter of language. I think the issue is that he has an entirely different perspective on these matters than you do. He believes certain propositions that I don't think you necessarily have to accept. That actual infinities can exist. That the concept of nothingness is incoherent. That existence requires time. There's plenty of philosophers and scientists that hold varying and contradicting views on all of these topics. When we talk about these sort of existential things that can't (as far as I can tell) really be tested and proven, I don't know if we can actually say such-and-such is wrong. I think the best we can do is argue the strengths and limitations of each view, and then go from there. And what may be incoherent to him may not be incoherent to you, and vice versa.
But I don't know. Maybe not.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI don't think its really a matter of language. I think the issue is that he has an entirely different perspective on these matters than you do. He believes certain propositions that I don't think you necessarily have to accept. That actual infinities can exist. That the concept of nothingness is incoherent. That existence requires time.
There's plenty of philosophers and scientists that hold varying and contradicting views on all of these topics. When we talk about these sort of existential things that can't (as far as I can tell) really be tested and proven, I don't know if we can actually say such-and-such is wrong. I think the best we can do is argue the strengths and limitations of each view, and then go from there. And what may be incoherent to him may not be incoherent to you, and vice versa.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes, I think there is a lot of room for disagreement. For instance, I don't see how this would be incoherent in the B-Theory of time since there time is not a real thing - it is an illusion.
And the B-Theory seems to be gaining ground with Philosophers and Physicists alike.
And the idea of God existing before creation and time does not seem incoherent to me."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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