Christians Believing Badly

[mossrose]

So, we're toddlers?

I guess so.

[Christianbookworm]

I guess so.

I'm being silly! Though, like toddlers, we seem to think we can hide by covering our eyes. If we can't see God, he can't see us! Yeah right.

[whag]

I would argue that this is an anachronistic way of looking at the manner in which ancient peoples regarded mythology.

Despite impressive erudition, Sproul and Zacharias cannot get their heads around the fact that the pre-Genesis storytellers were perhaps employing metaphor and not imagining the first human being formed from dust. They've instead commited to the literal interpretation rather than seeing a richer gift: a skeleton to flesh out "compatible" protologies and teleologies. Pete Enns appears to comprehend and appreciate that gift, which is why I like him.

I suspect that ancient peoples really thought volcanos were gods and not necessarily cognizant of future interpretations of phenomena, such as the variance of life.

[whag]

I do think God delivered great scientific minds for our enlightenment. I also think man is a selfish, fallen, sinful creature that wants its own way and doesn't want to think about consequences for sin.

So man turns its brilliance to ideas that do away with a Creator God and subsequent penalty for sin and need for a Redeemer. And ALL worldly ideas that are not derived from Godly wisdom are derived from the god of this age, and that is Satan. Like everything else we have, science can be used for good or for evil.

So, yes. A lie from the very pit of hell that does away with a Creator, Sustainer, Provider, Redeemer God and leaves us to our own wicked devices.

And my username is not capitalized, thanks much.

Come on, mossy. You really believe that? Hell in Christianity is an abode of punishment. It's never been populated by entities who concoct deceptive stories and funnel them down (up?) to the world. That makes no sense.

Are you being a tad metaphorical here?

[jordanriver]

You believe there's a God?

The answer would be a diversion. I am interested in what Mossrose thinks. Her understanding does not depend on what I think.

so?
what?

...are we playing the "if there was a God ....." dance?

if so, how do you know what any specific god/God would do, what do you base your "HERE IS WHAT GOD WOULD DO" on

[firstfloor]

I do think God delivered great scientific minds for our enlightenment. I also think man is a selfish, fallen, sinful creature that wants its own way and doesn't want to think about consequences for sin.

So man turns its brilliance to ideas that do away with a Creator God and subsequent penalty for sin and need for a Redeemer. And ALL worldly ideas that are not derived from Godly wisdom are derived from the god of this age, and that is Satan. Like everything else we have, science can be used for good or for evil.

So, yes. A lie from the very pit of hell that does away with a Creator, Sustainer, Provider, Redeemer God and leaves us to our own wicked devices.

And my username is not capitalized, thanks much.

Thanks for your reply, mossrose. This seems to rule out the possibility that science reveals Godly wisdom in an error correcting fashion at the cost of abandoning Biblical inerrancy and long established traditions. Perhaps traditional faiths are part of the continuity of discovery and not radically different from modern science. You don’t HAVE to end up in worldly wickedness.

[mossrose]

Come on, mossy. You really believe that? Hell in Christianity is an abode of punishment. It's never been populated by entities who concoct deceptive stories and funnel them down (up?) to the world. That makes no sense.

Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. People CHOOSE to go there. Matthew 25:41 --

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Satan isn't going to be in charge of that place prepared for him and the other fallen angels. That is a misconception. He will be in torment. But he and his angels are now free to influence mankind. That is what the phrase "the god of this age" is referring to. Do I believe that Satan is directing his minions from the depths of hell? No. The phrase I used, "a lie from the pit of hell" is just referring to the mindset of the godless world that is influenced by Satan.

But, one day, Satan WILL inhabit that place. Revelation 20:1-10

1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Are you being a tad metaphorical here?

Maybe?

[whag]

Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. People CHOOSE to go there. Matthew 25:41 --

Satan isn't going to be in charge of that place prepared for him and the other fallen angels. That is a misconception.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess I'm the literalist now, eh? =P

He will be in torment. But he and his angels are now free to influence mankind.

How can "bad angels" influence Christians to believe a hellish lie, though? I don't see how that squares with the promise of transformation--unless, of course, "renewing" means something different than I think it means.

That is what the phrase "the god of this age" is referring to. Do I believe that Satan is directing his minions from the depths of hell? No. The phrase I used, "a lie from the pit of hell" is just referring to the mindset of the godless world that is influenced by Satan.

I don't know. I think your theistic evolutionist brethren's love for you suggests otherwise. If they were influenced by godlessness, they wouldn't express a deep affection for you and acceptance of your teleology.

However, if they weren't influenced by godlessness, they'd accept the interpretation God earnestly wants them to see. That seems elegantly straightforward to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

If Christians can be swayed into believing lies of the magnitude you describe, then transformation and renewal--as I understand those processes--are so imperceptible as to be virtually nonexistent. What am I missing here?

To put it another way, if believing the lie isn't really consequential for the Christian, then it couldn't be as ENORMOUS in scope and supernatural malevolence as you've described it to be. It's just a harmless (albeit amazing) fact made visible via the general revelation.

[Tassman]

Yep. Fundy alert! Only fundies think literal means you read it without regard for genre or figures of speech!

[Adrift]

So were Adam and Eve actual historical people who brought sin into the world by disobeying God, or are they metaphorical figures? If the latter, why was an actual historical figure in the person of Jesus (the “last Adam”) required to physically sacrifice himself in order to effect Atonement?

As the story goes, Jesus paid the ransom for the condition of sin and death that Adam sold us into by his rebellion against God. Thus, if Adam’s disobedience is metaphorical, why couldn't Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross be a metaphorical story as well?

I believe all of the literalist Old Earth Creationist views I listed acccept a historical Adam and Eve.

[whag]

I believe all of the literalist Old Earth Creationist views I listed acccept a historical Adam and Eve.

An OECs' concern is mainly to solve the "geochronology" controversy, not the anthropological one--hence Old "Earth." A TE accepts the whole general revelation. Hence, you typically won't hear a TE refer to his view as OEC, since geochrolonogy is a given.

Many TEs see a historical Adam as essential, while many, like Pete Enns, have expressed doubt about it.

Here's a Christian addressing Tassman's question:

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...storical-adam/

Here's a TE response:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peteren...storical-adam/

[NormATive]

Here's a sad video of RC Sproul, Al Mohler, and Ravi Zacharias smugly saying evolution isn't compatible with Christianity. It makes me sad to see this, and I almost cringe for them...

I don't see these types of apologists as "sad" or even smug. I think they are being true to their worldview. I think they represent probably the majority view of most evangelical Christians. They believe that the Bible is God's Word (capital "W"). As such, I think that it is incompatible with evolution - macro or micro. These Christians view much of the Tanakh accounts as historical truth (Adam and Eve, Enoch, Moses and his miracles, the Tower of Babel, Sampson and Delilah, Daniel in the Lion's Den, Noah's Ark and etc...) rather than symbolic stories such as those found in the Talmud, for instance (which bear a stark similarity to some of Jesus' parables). They believe in the literal creation of each animal of its kind right there in the Garden of Eden with Adam - formed from the dust of the earth - as godly inspired Foreman and Name Giver. Each species of parrot was created right there in the Garden, not evolved over millennia into their present forms.

I think that within this paradigm there are varying degrees of what is literal and what is allegorical. For example, when I queried our Baptist Pastor on why creatures such as the Dinosaurs - particularly T-Rex! - were not even mentioned anywhere in the Bible. I asked this question after returning from a trip to Dinosaur National Park in Wyoming where we physically witnessed the extraction of dinosaur bones on a trip to Dig for a Day. At one of the sites, you could see a large dinosaur leg bone still embedded in the side of a hill! I thought that it was odd that dinosaurs weren't mentioned in the Bible, since, on the YEC timeline, they would have had to coexist with humans. Besides, Adam and Eve named all the animals - presumably including the dinosaurs. This also brought to my mind questions concerning how these creatures would have fit aboard the Ark. One of these dinosaurs at the Wyoming Dinosaur Center stretched the entire length of the building! I knew how big the Ark was from Sunday School class - and this creature could NOT have fit on board with all the other hundreds of giant dinosaurs. So, I asked him why the Ark wasn't big enough to accommodate them all. The Pastor told me that Satan buried these bones in the desert in order to throw us off the track. Really.

But, I consider that an extreme literal view of the Bible. I think most people understand the story of Noah as somewhat allegorical, and not necessarily an historic event. Or, at least a more "local" event that to the writers would indeed consume their "known" world. They would also acknowledge some of the errors of understanding of the world around them due to their limitations. I think they would say that God inspired them within the context of their "known" world.

Let's not turn this into a debate on evolution. Instead, this is for evolution-accepting Christians and skeptics to talk about their favorite modern Christian thinkers who say interesting things about epistemology and have sophisticated belief systems....I'll start with Pete Enns. His full acceptance of the facts combined with what seems to be an unconpromised religion makes him very likeable and interesting to listen to....I also very much like Frank Schaeffer. I find his older videos about his transition from evangelicalism to an eastern orthodox belief system fascinating...Evolution is true, so a debate would be boring and filled with PRATTs (Points Refuted A Thousand Times). Please no evolution debate.

My daughter is an evolutionary biologist, so I have no problem accepting evolution as established fact. I've seen enough in the laboratory and in the field as well as my daughter's work in genetics to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think, however, it is the Achilles Heel of traditional, creedal Christianity. If evolution is true, then the story of Adam and Eve is just that. A story. But, if Jesus is the Second Adam, then the First Adam needs to be true. Also, modern Christianity is dependent on Original Sin as a foundational principle. It posits that mankind is inherently evil (through the actions of a fictional being) and despotic to the core. So much so, that there is no hope for the future. No hope for self redemption. This has not been my experience. I would say that quite the opposite is true. I think that mankind is fundamentally pure in spirit, and will ultimately do what is right for civilized society. I think the majority of human beings on this planet are fundamentally good. I don't know of many purely evil people. I know plenty of people who make mistakes, including myself. But, fundamentally, we will do the right thing. We are fundamentally kindhearted, loving and forgiving. This contradicts what modern Christianity teaches about human nature. It NEEDS mankind to be fundamentally evil.

Anyway, I don't think that most Christians analyze it at this far of a level. I think that they are inspired by the hopeful message of a successful humanity living in harmony forever. The only difference is that they believe it is only possible in the afterlife, and we think that it is possible in this life.

NORM

[Adrift]

I don't see these types of apologists as "sad" or even smug. I think they are being true to their worldview. I think they represent probably the majority view of most evangelical Christians. They believe that the Bible is God's Word (capital "W"). As such, I think that it is incompatible with evolution - macro or micro. These Christians view much of the Tanakh accounts as historical truth (Adam and Eve, Enoch, Moses and his miracles, the Tower of Babel, Sampson and Delilah, Daniel in the Lion's Den, Noah's Ark and etc...) rather than symbolic stories such as those found in the Talmud, for instance (which bear a stark similarity to some of Jesus' parables). They believe in the literal creation of each animal of its kind right there in the Garden of Eden with Adam - formed from the dust of the earth - as godly inspired Foreman and Name Giver. Each species of parrot was created right there in the Garden, not evolved over millennia into their present forms.

I think that within this paradigm there are varying degrees of what is literal and what is allegorical. For example, when I queried our Baptist Pastor on why creatures such as the Dinosaurs - particularly T-Rex! - were not even mentioned anywhere in the Bible. I asked this question after returning from a trip to Dinosaur National Park in Wyoming where we physically witnessed the extraction of dinosaur bones on a trip to Dig for a Day. At one of the sites, you could see a large dinosaur leg bone still embedded in the side of a hill! I thought that it was odd that dinosaurs weren't mentioned in the Bible, since, on the YEC timeline, they would have had to coexist with humans. Besides, Adam and Eve named all the animals - presumably including the dinosaurs. This also brought to my mind questions concerning how these creatures would have fit aboard the Ark. One of these dinosaurs at the Wyoming Dinosaur Center stretched the entire length of the building! I knew how big the Ark was from Sunday School class - and this creature could NOT have fit on board with all the other hundreds of giant dinosaurs. So, I asked him why the Ark wasn't big enough to accommodate them all. The Pastor told me that Satan buried these bones in the desert in order to throw us off the track. Really.

But, I consider that an extreme literal view of the Bible. I think most people understand the story of Noah as somewhat allegorical, and not necessarily an historic event. Or, at least a more "local" event that to the writers would indeed consume their "known" world. They would also acknowledge some of the errors of understanding of the world around them due to their limitations. I think they would say that God inspired them within the context of their "known" world.



My daughter is an evolutionary biologist, so I have no problem accepting evolution as established fact. I've seen enough in the laboratory and in the field as well as my daughter's work in genetics to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think, however, it is the Achilles Heel of traditional, creedal Christianity. If evolution is true, then the story of Adam and Eve is just that. A story. But, if Jesus is the Second Adam, then the First Adam needs to be true. Also, modern Christianity is dependent on Original Sin as a foundational principle. It posits that mankind is inherently evil (through the actions of a fictional being) and despotic to the core. So much so, that there is no hope for the future. No hope for self redemption. This has not been my experience. I would say that quite the opposite is true. I think that mankind is fundamentally pure in spirit, and will ultimately do what is right for civilized society. I think the majority of human beings on this planet are fundamentally good. I don't know of many purely evil people. I know plenty of people who make mistakes, including myself. But, fundamentally, we will do the right thing. We are fundamentally kindhearted, loving and forgiving. This contradicts what modern Christianity teaches about human nature. It NEEDS mankind to be fundamentally evil.

Anyway, I don't think that most Christians analyze it at this far of a level. I think that they are inspired by the hopeful message of a successful humanity living in harmony forever. The only difference is that they believe it is only possible in the afterlife, and we think that it is possible in this life.

NORM

You talk a lot about the Christian view, but as a pseudo-practicing Reform-ish Jewish non-theist you rarely talk about the Orthodox Jewish perspective on these things. Why is that? Is it because you're embarrassed about the more traditional Jewish view on these subjects, or is it based on a complete lack of understanding on the Orthodox Jewish perspective?

[Tassman]

My daughter is an evolutionary biologist, so I have no problem accepting evolution as established fact. I've seen enough in the laboratory and in the field as well as my daughter's work in genetics to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think, however, it is the Achilles Heel of traditional, creedal Christianity. If evolution is true, then the story of Adam and Eve is just that. A story. But, if Jesus is the Second Adam, then the First Adam needs to be true. Also, modern Christianity is dependent on Original Sin as a foundational principle. It posits that mankind is inherently evil (through the actions of a fictional being) and despotic to the core. So much so, that there is no hope for the future. No hope for self redemption. This has not been my experience. I would say that quite the opposite is true. I think that mankind is fundamentally pure in spirit, and will ultimately do what is right for civilized society. I think the majority of human beings on this planet are fundamentally good. I don't know of many purely evil people. I know plenty of people who make mistakes, including myself. But, fundamentally, we will do the right thing. We are fundamentally kindhearted, loving and forgiving. This contradicts what modern Christianity teaches about human nature. It NEEDS mankind to be fundamentally evil.

Anyway, I don't think that most Christians analyze it at this far of a level. I think that they are inspired by the hopeful message of a successful humanity living in harmony forever. The only difference is that they believe it is only possible in the afterlife, and we think that it is possible in this life.

NORM

[firstfloor]

.... our own wicked devices.