There was no first cause in the series of falling dominos. You want to simply disallow the example.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Does 2 + 2 = 4 need a god to be true?
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How can I discuss this with you? Having first causes (plural) and never one original first cause.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI could talk about an example of an infinite set of married bachelors, but it would be just as fruitless.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhen the point of the series being infinite, meaning, having no first cause. What has a first cause IN NOT INFINITE. Or eternal.
It appears to me that you missed my point about the dominoes. When we refer to a first cause in cosmology, we refer to the cause that started everything. There is no "unique first cause" and "non-unique first cause". There is simply "the first cause". When I made my domino analogy, I was referring to a finite series. And the reason I was referring to a finite series is because its nonsense to talk of first causes in a infinite series.
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Yes that would be nonsense. So the example of an infinite series of dominos with no first domino and no last domino to you is nonsense. Fine.
A causal series where someone begets someone who begets someone else, where each member has an independent ability to cause a new member, could in theory go on forever without having a primary member. However, dominoes do not have the ability to fall over independently on their own and must derive their causal power from an earlier member."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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You know, it occurs to me 37818 that a whole lot of misunderstanding could be avoided if you familiarized yourself with these terms. Its like you have an idea of what they mean, but then you use them in ways that no one else uses them, and then expect everyone to understand what you're talking about. Its sort of like when I've talked to Mormons who use many of the same Christian terms and phrases, but put a unique spin on them so that they mean something different, or so that imply something different.
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIf there were no first domino to fall, then none of the dominos would be falling. You can't have an infinite series of secondary causes without a primary cause.
And the cat would be both dead and alive, yes, I know...
Now, in Bible's actual argument, this is nonsense. He's already allowed that the universe is caused so yep, we need an original Domino. I want extra cheese, please!"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere was no first cause in the series of falling dominos. You want to simply disallow the example.
In other words, you're pushing the problem backwards, not solving it. It's simpler and smarter to just start at the beginning - a caused universe with one Prime Mover. Deal with singling out that Mover so that there is only One (hint: eternality) and work your way forward from there.
And don't blame others when they can't follow your examples. Soy was mistaken, in my opinion, but he wasn't trying to disregard the example - he doesn't see an application. He's right about that, by the way. It's a really poor example for what you seem to be arguing.
Tell you what, why don't you just tell us what it is you are trying to prove?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostAn infinite series dominos with no first domino and no last domino is not nonsense. However, having the dominos be secondary causes in a causal series that has no primary cause is nonsense. A causally ordered series where each of the secondary members derives is causal power from an earlier member must have a primary member from which they derive it which does not derive its causal power from anything else in the series.
A causal series where someone begets someone who begets someone else, where each member has an independent ability to cause a new member, could in theory go on forever without having a primary member. However, dominoes do not have the ability to fall over independently on their own and must derive their causal power from an earlier member.
You're being way overly rational.
He was actually discussing the hypothetical. It doesn't make his argument any better at all - worse, in fact - but he was working on the idea of origin. Unfortunately, he is mistakenly assuming they aren't causally ordered merely because they have no beginning or end.
I'm gonna go get coffee. This is the kind of discussion people normally have while on LSD but I'm too much of a prude for that (i.e. I'm not stupid enough to use LSD) so I'll settle for expresso...
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostUm, actually, in an eternal universe, they could always be in a state of falling. Eternal domino tracks falling eternally - and probably never actually hitting the ground. In such a universe there would not be a need for a primary cause.
And the cat would be both dead and alive, yes, I know...
Now, in Bible's actual argument, this is nonsense. He's already allowed that the universe is caused so yep, we need an original Domino. I want extra cheese, please!"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThere is no such thing as plural first causes. That's why its called the FIRST cause.
Yes, it's unnecessarily messy and ultimately silly, but it can be theorized. And yes, I think you end up having to move back to a First first cause which makes it even sillier.
Philosophy or drugs: which is worse for your brain?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostHow did the dominos get to a state of internally falling? Either the series was created in a state of falling, which which case the creator of the series is the primary cause, or the series was created in a state of being upright and something caused the series to begin falling, in which case that would be a type of primary cause. Either way, there can't be a infinite series of secondary causes without a primary cause. If there was no primary cause, then the dominos wouldn't exist in a causal series.
This would be the part where physics leaves the building disgusted, yes I know."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostThink multiverse.
Yes, it's unnecessarily messy and ultimately silly, but it can be theorized. And yes, I think you end up having to move back to a First first cause which makes it even sillier.
Philosophy or drugs: which is worse for your brain?
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