The Problem of Natural Evil

[Sparko]

Sodom and the Egyption plagues are examples of already extant natural phenomena being directed at people to punish them.

Clearly you didn't understand my OP. I didn't say I can't get my mind around moral evil having large-scale environmental consequences. You're not getting the temporal and causation aspects of the problem.

Then explain it to me.

[whag]

I agree. There's more that can be said about the artistry and implications of the narrative that are very profound but I don't think it was intended to address the philosophical questions of natural evil and certainly not scientific ones. The Book of Job is more relevant in my opinion.

More relevant how? I don't see it as shedding any particular light on the problem of natural evil. I've always seen it as anticlimactic, with all of Job's questions leading up to a meh answer.

Basically it says natural evil affects humanity because of two morally opposed conscious forces with contrary intentions, and that it's presumptive to speculate further or ask for more explanation.

[whag]

Then explain it to me.

I've given sufficient explanation in this thread. Could you return the favor and elucidate your view on the causation? We might be talking past each other because you don't understand the significance of the natural history record and how the facts expressed therein give rise to the problem.

[robrecht]

More relevant how? I don't see it as shedding any particular light on the problem of natural evil. I've always seen it as anticlimactic, with all of Job's questions leading up to a meh answer.

Basically it says natural evil affects humanity because of two morally opposed conscious forces with contrary intentions, and that it's presumptive to speculate further or ask for more explanation.

More relevant because it at least intends to address the problem of natural evil, whereas I don't think Genesis does.

[Sparko]

I've given sufficient explanation in this thread. Could you return the favor and elucidate your view on the causation? We might be talking past each other because you don't understand the significance of the natural history record and how the facts expressed therein give rise to the problem.

To me "natural evil" means the harmful effects of the natural world: Climate, Weather, Earthquakes, Diseases, etc.

What do you mean by it?

[whag]

To me "natural evil" means the harmful effects of the natural world: Climate, Weather, Earthquakes, Diseases, etc.

What do you mean by it?

Climate and weather are synonymous in this context. Etc covers the rest, I'm assuming. Now do you see how free will can't have brought about those eons-old natural phenomena?

[seer]

Climate and weather are synonymous in this context. Etc covers the rest, I'm assuming. Now do you see how free will can't have brought about those eons-old natural phenomena?

But we could have had control over those conditions, even over death, Like Christ, if we never fell.

[Sparko]

Climate and weather are synonymous in this context. Etc covers the rest, I'm assuming. Now do you see how free will can't have brought about those eons-old natural phenomena?

Well if you are talking about before there were people, then you are right, people could not cause it. But I don't know of anyone who claims such a thing anyway.

[whag]

Well if you are talking about before there were people, then you are right, people could not cause it. But I don't know of anyone who claims such a thing anyway.

William Dembski claims such a thing. I made that clear in this thread that people like that exist. YECs are well known for attributing free will to predation and calamity.

I'm glad we sorted out the misunderstanding.

[Sparko]

William Dembski claims such a thing. I made that clear in this thread that people like that exist. YECs are well known for attributing free will to predation and calamity.

I'm glad we sorted out the misunderstanding.

I don't think that YECs claim that human free will caused natural evil before there were people.

[Kelp(p)]

Most YEC's I've seen believe that natural evil did not exist before humans. T-Rex ate coconuts, rivers never flooded, etc.

[Kelp(p)]

So, Whag, just curious. Why do you reject Dembski's idea of the Fall reverberating backwards through time?

[whag]

I don't think that YECs claim that human free will caused natural evil before there were people.

Another misunderstanding. Of course they don't believe that human free will caused natural evil before people. I meant they, like Dembski, correlate natural evil with free will. The difference is that Dembski believes that the effects of the fall were retroactive. YECs are much more linear.

[whag]

So, Whag, just curious. Why do you reject Dembski's idea of the Fall reverberating backwards through time?

For the sake of brevity, I'll use tectonics. Consider it representative of all natural evil phenomena since the same reasoning can be applied.

I reject it because the physics of crust driven by mantle convection currents better explain "catastrophic movement" better than a person eating a piece of fruit (or murdering a person or cheating on a test, if you don't wanna be literal about it).

[lilpixieofterror]

Another misunderstanding. Of course they don't believe that human free will caused natural evil before people. I meant they, like Dembski, correlate natural evil with free will. The difference is that Dembski believes that the effects of the fall were retroactive. YECs are much more linear.

I see, so your goal wasn't to debate Christians on the topic at all, but instead to insult a subset of YEC's. Why didn't you just say that you had zero interest in discussing the topic, from the beginning? Would of saved us all a lot of time.