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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Can we trust what God says?
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell I'm interested in God's opinion of me and not yours.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd the God of scripture is my God not "science." Which is continual flux and changeable.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I never said that science should close shop, I'm in the electronics field, and use principles like ohms laws every day. So science and inductive reasoning can be useful. But because of the changeable nature of science and our limited understanding of the facts never put "science" over scripture. Why should I? And I don't believe in a finite universe because "science says" but because God says...
You better hope you never get cornered by a geologist or astronomer, because they'll deeply embarrass you.
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Originally posted by whag View PostI don't follow you. Adam created asteroids and cacti?
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by whag View PostI don't follow you. Adam created asteroids and cacti?
Given your admission that your senses could be deceiving you, how do you know that asteroids and cacti exist?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostYou've conflated calamity (an occurrence, which does not exist autonomously, apart from circumstance) with objects involved in calamities.
Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostGiven your admission that your senses could be deceiving you, how do you know that asteroids and cacti exist?
So you don't keep asking that inane question, let's agree, for the sake of argument, we live in the Matrix. Now explain what you meant by calamities being Adam's creation.
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostPlease note that this is not an answer to my question. I asked for a definition of what you meant by "presupposition", and you offered what you believe to be an example. Two different things. Please define what you mean by "presupposition".
And in the Christian worldview we would expect such behavior. When God tells me that (1) you already know Him in your heart of hearts, and that (2) you suppress that truth in unrighteousness, then why should I believe you when you tell me that you don't?
It's always been known.
Seeing as how the subject that you're talking about is immediate knowledge, and not something that's arrived at through discursive reasoning, the answer to this question should be obvious.
I've already explained this, in terms that are quite simple. If you neither (1) all knowledge, nor (2) revelation from God, who does have all knowledge, you have no way of knowing if any as of yet undiscovered fact "out there" will refute anything or everything you claim to know.
Now, if you've found a flaw in this reasoning I'd love for you to point it out. But outright ignoring it and asking the same question over and over will not do. It's neither rational nor intellectually honest.
God, as the Trinity from all eternity, is not biological in the sense of being male or female, because God is spirit (John 4:24) and spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). However, in the incarnation of Christ, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, added onto His divine nature a human nature, becoming a biological male (Luke 2:23). So, in that sense God being made flesh (John 1:1,14) is male in the biological sense--in the person of Jesus and he is still a man right now.
The question here is, why does the Bible refer to God in the masculine?
There is a doctrine called federal headship where the male represents the descendants. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, Eve sinned first. But it was through Adam that sin entered the world (Romans 5:12). This demonstrates male representation. This is important because Jesus was the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45). He was our representative (1 Corinthians 15:22) on the cross.
That, btw, is the last red herring I'll answer from you. Please get back on subject.Last edited by JimL; 09-21-2014, 10:21 PM.
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhat does he think of you if you're afraid of his general revelation?
Science isn't changeable. Our discoveries add to our knowledge, but the processes that form stars and erode mountains are regular and constant. How can you be so ignorant of this?
By saying human beings are ultimately ignorant about geology and cosmology, you're saying research in those fields is futile. Even more, you insult the intelligence of cosmologists and geologists whose careers are rooted in studying long processes (like seafloor spread and stellar mechanics) are just as important to them as yours is to you.Last edited by seer; 09-22-2014, 07:24 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat makes no sense. God would be angry if I took His word more literally than others?
Originally posted by seer View PostTWhat do you mean not changeable? Do we live in a Steady State Universe?
Of course, the universe evolves. That's what I'm trying to show YOU.
Originally posted by seer View PostTBut again, all men have bias, all men subjectively filter the "evidence." Then there is the reality that we simple do not have all the facts in any of these cases. Now I do believe there is good evidence for an old earth, but I take no hard fast position on the age of the universe.
BTW, the age of the universe wasnt surmised "hard and fast." The more you imply it was arrived at suddenly and sloppily, the more you will be laughed at by anyone with the least grasp of cosmology.Last edited by whag; 09-22-2014, 12:17 PM.
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Originally posted by whag View PostI imagine god gets annoyed by unnuanced evangelism. Surely you can understand why.
You said "science" is changeable. That is not correct, unless you mean science constantly improves. It does. Science isn't the same as the universe, though.
Can you say that with a straight face? If science is fundamentally wrong about the past because "all men have bias," I guess that makes religion fundamentally wrong, doesn't it?
BTW, the age of the universe wasnt surmised "hard and fast." The more you imply it was arrived at suddenly and sloppily, the more you will be laughed at by anyone with the least grasp of cosmology.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
I mean that science can and does change its conclusions. Like going from a Steady State universe to Big Bang cosmology.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-23-2014, 06:35 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI doubt it. He knows our hearts and motives, even if we get it wrong at times.
Originally posted by seer View PostI mean that science can and does change its conclusions. Like going from a Steady State universe to Big Bang cosmology.
Originally posted by seer View PostHardly, since I believe that God can impart knowledge.
Originally posted by seer View PostWhag, how can I make this more clear - I don't care what men think or if they mock me. Their opinion is meaningless.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI mean that science can and does change its conclusions. Like going from a Steady State universe to Big Bang cosmology.
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Originally posted by whag View PostAll natural calamities involves "objects." What kind of calamities are you talking about (that Adam is specifically is responsible for)--the objectless ones?
Originally posted by whag View PostI'm comfortable with cacti possibly being an illusion
If that's the case then how do you, in terms of your worldview, come to know anything, to any degree of certainty?
Originally posted by whag View PostWith regards to deep time and evolution, so long as those two things illuminate my understanding of biology, cosmology, and the earth sciences,
Originally posted by whag View Posttheir possible non-existence doesn't negate the benefit of accepting them as real things.
Originally posted by whag View PostSo you don't keep asking that inane question,
Originally posted by whag View Postlet's agree, for the sake of argument, we live in the Matrix. Now explain what you meant by calamities being Adam's creation.
Are you asking me to account for the fall in a hypothetical world wherein the fall would never have happened?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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