Christianity Is Dangerous

[Darth Executor]

The fireman is trained to override his fear and prevent madams from making bad decisions in a rescue effort. It's not even close to a good analogy,

It's a very good analogy. Most firemen have a healthy fear of fire. That's a good thing. The madam in the example has no fear because her concern for whatever's in the fire overrides it. That's a bad thing. The point of the analogy is to show the absurdity of demonizing fear. Fear is part of our arsenal of instincts for a good reason.

but serves my point that fear isn't conducive to critical thinking. Fear tactics are indicative of the tactician's marked lack of confidence in what he believes.

This is a non-sequitur and very poor "critical thinking". There is no connection between "fear tactics" and the confidence of the preacher. It further implies that human are perfectly rational creatures, and there is thus a relation between the truth of an argument and its ability to persuade (there frequently isn't). Last but not least, people who ignore the role of emotions, particularly in relation to social truths, are not playing with a full deck. Critical thinking relies on data acquired through our senses. A man who gouges out his eyes can gather less data than a man who doesn't. Same with people who ignore fear or dismiss it as a bad thing.

[Mountain Man]

Yes, because that would be extremely effective to market God as jealous--a human trait to which we should all aspire.


Exactly. Coercion by fear has always been the underlying reason for salvation. It works best.

But my point is that it's not about marketing, it's about telling the truth, and Christians who "market" God by only highlighting his warm and fuzzy attributes to the exclusion of all else are performing a disservice. We need to "market" the whole package. And, yes, God is jealous in the same way that a husband who catches his wife sleeping with another man is jealous. It's a righteous jealously. And, yes, we should fear God, which is to say that we should have a healthy respect for who and what he is and what he demands of us and the punishment he has promised for those who refuse to repent. But he's also a God of love and mercy who does not desire that anyone should perish and made a way to salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you are to accept God and the forgiveness he offers then you need the whole truth and not a watered down, lukewarm version of it.

[Mountain Man]

tell that to MM who views [fear] as a key component to secure conversion.

I never said that. People who try to coerce conversion through fear are as bad as those who try coerce conversion by preaching nothing but a teddy bear God who is all smiles and sunshine.

[whag]

But my point is that it's not about marketing, it's about telling the truth, and Christians who "market" God by only highlighting his warm and fuzzy attributes to the exclusion of all else are performing a disservice.

by anthropomorphizing further, you'll only win the weaker minds who can't recognize what you're doing. this his also how you convince people evolution isn't true, by marketing to the most naive and gullible. I mean, AiG, really?

And, yes, God is jealous in the same way that a husband who catches his wife sleeping with another man is jealous. It's a righteous jealously.

when you're jealous to the point of commiting violence, are you in your right mind?

, yes, we should fear God, which is to say that we should have a healthy respect for who and what he is and what he demands of us and the punishment he has promised for those who refuse to repent.

I can't think of a one instance in which violent jealousy is a "respectable' attribute. can you?

he's also a God of love and mercy who does not desire that anyone should perish and made a way to salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you are to accept God and the forgiveness he offers then you need the whole truth and not a watered down, lukewarm version of it.

the problem is that truth is so relative, you think YEC creationism is ALSO the truth. you'll only win weak minds with that nonsense.

and why would you want weak minds with such a challenging task as evangelism ahead?

[whag]

I never said that. People who try to coerce conversion through fear are as bad as those who try coerce conversion by preaching nothing but a teddy bear God who is all smiles and sunshine.

Yes, that's surely what you meant.That's what Jesus believed too, hence his warning to fear the one who can throw you into hell.

Coercion by fear only reduces the ability to think critically. The Koran mentions your impending "painful doom" dozens of time for a good reason: fear ensures you won't use your noggin overmuch in evaluating the belief system.

[Christianbookworm]

Is the Christian world view a cosmic horror story from an atheist worldview and vice versa? And it would make sense to fear an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being in the sense that you do not want to anger Him by committing evil acts. Too late, well He has a solution for that... the Cross and resurrection!

[Meh Gerbil]

It's not our job to "sell" God. It's our job to preach the truth even when it makes someone uncomfortable. We are to be salt and light to the world. Salt is an irritant, and a light shining in the darkness causes people to squirm and look away. The moment we downplay certain truths to make the gospel more palatable is the moment we become heretics .

I wasn't talking about marketing.

I was merely reflecting on your observation that some people seem to be cutting out the hard truths of hell and replacing it with the soft, easily digestible truths about God's love. It is my opinion that a proper presentation of God's love is a much harder truth to communicate than hell since unconditional love is foreign whereas the tit-for-tat presentations of hell are very easy for people to comprehend. I think a hell fire and brimstone preacher is taking the easy road - an actual presentation of the love of God is repugnant to people.

[Meh Gerbil]

Yes, that's surely what you meant.That's what Jesus believed too, hence his warning to fear the one who can throw you into hell.

A few posts back I warned you that bad interpretations of Scripture were forthcoming.
When I warned you about that, Matthew 10:28 was the particular passage I had in mind.

I recognize that you don't believe in God and that is okay, but at the very least you can review the context of the mis-used quote and see that it says exactly the opposite of what has been presented to you today.

Here is the passage in context:

Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 ; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Christ establishes that if you are going to be afraid you'd better be afraid of God over man to first remove the fear of man.
He then elaborates and declares that there is no reason to be afraid of God because as our Father is he watching over us.
Again, I understand that you don't believe any part of the passage, but I think it should be obvious that the context shows it means exactly the opposite of what has been claimed.

[Rational Gaze]

Let me try and follow whag's 'logic' for a moment.

1. Jealousy is an attribute that can be ascribed to humans.
2. Therefore, jealousy is a human attribute.
3. God is described as being jealous.
4. Therefore, God possesses a human attribute.

1. Instilling fear into someone is always wrong.
2. Warning someone of their potential doom instills fear into that person.
3. Therefore, warning someone of their potential doom is always wrong.

So, whag's 'reasoning' ultimately rests on several fallacies obvious to those with even half a brain.

[Meh Gerbil]

1. Instilling fear into someone is always wrong.
2. Warning someone of their potential doom instills fear into that person.
3. Therefore, warning someone of their potential doom is always wrong.

I think whag is making the claim that if you have to use fear to move product then maybe your product sucks.
I've a tendency to agree.

Evangelicals like to claim that churches are failing because of the lack of good 'ole fashioned hellfire and brimstone teaching.
I'd claim that while we had church membership all we taught was fear - what was required was love.
After awhile fear drains people of motivation and strength; I don't blame them for beginning to wander away.

[Mountain Man]

I wasn't talking about marketing.

I was merely reflecting on your observation that some people seem to be cutting out the hard truths of hell and replacing it with the soft, easily digestible truths about God's love. It is my opinion that a proper presentation of God's love is a much harder truth to communicate than hell since unconditional love is foreign whereas the tit-for-tat presentations of hell are very easy for people to comprehend. I think a hell fire and brimstone preacher is taking the easy road - an actual presentation of the love of God is repugnant to people.

You were asking which kind of God is easier to "sell", and it's a pointless question. We're not supposed to "sell" a God whose only attribute is love, nor are we to "sell" one whose only attribute is wrath. We're not supposed to "sell" a God who only offers salvation, nor are we to "sell" one who only offers judgment. We are to "sell" a God who is loving, who is just, who is wrathful and vengeful and merciful. In other words, we're supposed to "sell" the God of the Bible.

[Meh Gerbil]

You were asking which kind of God is easier to "sell", and it's a pointless question. We're not supposed to "sell" a God whose only attribute is love, nor are we to "sell" one whose only attribute is wrath. We're not supposed to "sell" a God who only offers salvation, nor are we to "sell" one who only offers judgment. We are to "sell" a God who is loving, who is just, who is wrathful and vengeful and merciful. In other words, we're supposed to "sell" the God of the Bible.

I wouldn't even know why you felt the need to make that clarification.
Suffice it to say, I agree with you.

[Darth Executor]

I think whag is making the claim that if you have to use fear to move product then maybe your product sucks.
I've a tendency to agree.

Evangelicals like to claim that churches are failing because of the lack of good 'ole fashioned hellfire and brimstone teaching.
I'd claim that while we had church membership all we taught was fear - what was required was love.
After awhile fear drains people of motivation and strength; I don't blame them for beginning to wander away.

Well you're wrong, we taught fire and brimstone for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Your brand of Christianity only started being taught to the general Christian masses in the last century or so, and it has done a fantastic job at emptying the pews. It turns out that people like sex, money and drugs better than your Jesus. So by your metric you're plain wrong. People wander out of liberal churches a lot more than they wander out of fundamentalist ones.

[Mountain Man]

I think whag is making the claim that if you have to use fear to move product then maybe your product sucks.
I've a tendency to agree.

We're not trying to "move product". We're trying to present the truth, and if a certain aspect of that truth happens to scare away idle window shoppers then it's on them. Presenting half-truths to keep them looking is heretical.

[Meh Gerbil]

We're not trying to "move product". We're trying to present the truth, and if a certain aspect of that truth happens to scare away idle window shoppers then it's on them. Presenting half-truths to keep them looking is heretical.

I already told you that I agree with your last statement.
Is there a certain form I have to fill out in order to convince you that I agree?