Divine revelation

[shunyadragon]

Again, it would only be relevant to our discussion if you were a member of a dissenting group.

I do not think that was the intent of OingoBoingo who brought up that problem. His intent was to present a chaotic disorganized picture of the Baha'i Faith where it was open to interpretation to mean anything someone wanted.

[shunyadragon]

and other western countries

Hmm. Interesting in light of our discussion on evolution of religion.

What would Christianity today be like were it not for individual reformers like St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Pope John Paul II, and etc...?

Actually I do not consider the above significant reformers in Christianity. For example Martin Luther believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible, literal Genesis and rejected modern cosmology, and endorsed a violent persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews. St. Augustine St. Thomas Aquinas were more into philosophical justification of Christian Faith not reform. St Paul (Saul), no reform here, he established the Hellenist Roman foundation of Christianity. John Paul II like our present pope advocated limited reforms under the already firmly established Doctrine, Dogma, and Disaplines of the Roman Church. Neither pope has openly advocated any radical reform of the foundation of the church.

Or Judaism without the individual reformers like Hillel and yes; even Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus of Nazareth would be considered a reformer outside the traditional Churches like Unitarian Universalists, but not within the churches. They consider him the Messiah and the Revealer of a new revelation from God that fulfilled Judaism.

If you are interested I would like to discuss Hillel in another thread.

Islam today, mostly among radicals, is heavily influenced by the teachings of one man: Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab. Usama bin Laden was influenced greatly by Wahhabist teaching.

I wonder...

NORM

Attempts at reform in Islam, like Christianity, results in more divisions and violence.



Subject of an upcoming thread: I seriously believe that the radicalization of Islam is directly a product of Western countries, to colonize, subdivide the Islamic world dividing ethic and religious division like a pie for there own plans to manipulate, colonize and control the Middle East, and their resources. There is also a distinct pattern to suppress and destroy moderate Islamic political parties and groups who supported democracy over the past 100 years or more. The USA and other western countries supported corrupt military and royal families that also suppressed moderate Islam.

[OingoBoingo]

The problem is the concept of infallibility and inerrancy of scripture does not mean things do not change in the Baha'i Faith like in some ancient religions. Statements on the physical sciences in scripture is not considered infallible nor inerrant. Decisions of the Universal House of Justice are also subject to change as knowledge evolves. The spiritual laws of the Katab-i-aqdas is not likely subject to change and the heart of scriptural inerrancy in the Baha'i Faith, until a later future Revelation. There are no statements concerning the physical nature of our existence in the Katab-i-aqdas.

The question was previously asked about independent 'personal Divine Revelation' by believers in the Baha'i Faith that would change scripture or give an specific interpretation. The answer is not likely accepted.

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace

religion must conform to reason and be in accord with the conclusions of science. For religion, reason and science are realities; therefore, these three, being realities, must conform and be reconciled. A question or principle which is religious in its nature must be sanctioned by science. Science must declare it to be valid, and reason must confirm it in order that it may inspire confidence. If religious teaching, however, be at variance with science and reason, it is unquestionably superstition. The Lord of mankind has bestowed upon us the faculty of reason whereby we may discern the realities of things. How then can man rightfully accept any proposition which is not in conformity with the processes of reason and the principles of science? Assuredly such a course cannot inspire man with confidence and real belief.

© Copyright Original Source

But that's a far cry from stating that Baha'i scripture is fallible in matters of science.

For more on the Baha'i Faith and Science you can check the following wikipedia link, but it does have a bit of an apologetic bent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%...th_and_science

The authoritative view, as espoused by the Universal House of Justice on matters of scriptural inerrancy and science can be read here:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj_infallibility_abdulbaha

It is a human tendency, against which the Manifestation warns us, to measure His statements against the inaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind. We tend to take them and place them within one or other of the existing categories of human philosophy or science while, in reality, they transcend these and will, if properly understood, open new and vast horizons to our understanding.

© Copyright Original Source

And here:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/compilation_science_technology.html#14

It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.

© Copyright Original Source

[OingoBoingo]

I do not think that was the intent of OingoBoingo who brought up that problem. His intent was to present a chaotic disorganized picture of the Baha'i Faith where it was open to interpretation to mean anything someone wanted.

No, that wasn't really my intent, but now that you mention it...

[robrecht]

The problem is the concept of infallibility and inerrancy of scripture does not mean things do not change in the Baha'i Faith like in some ancient religions. Statements on the physical sciences in scripture is not considered infallible nor inerrant. Decisions of the Universal House of Justice are also subject to change as knowledge evolves. The spiritual laws of the Katab-i-aqdas is not likely subject to change and the heart of scriptural inerrancy in the Baha'i Faith, until a later future Revelation. There are no statements concerning the physical nature of our existence in the Katab-i-aqdas.

The question was previously asked about independent 'personal Divine Revelation' by believers in the Baha'i Faith that would change scripture or give an specific interpretation. The answer is not likely accepted.

So, do I understand this correctly? The spiritual law that women may not be elected to the International House of Justice is not likely to change but could change, but only with another act of divine revelation and not through the evolution of scientific knowledge nor the decisions of the International House of Justice. Is that correct?

[shunyadragon]

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace

religion must conform to reason and be in accord with the conclusions of science. For religion, reason and science are realities; therefore, these three, being realities, must conform and be reconciled. A question or principle which is religious in its nature must be sanctioned by science. Science must declare it to be valid, and reason must confirm it in order that it may inspire confidence. If religious teaching, however, be at variance with science and reason, it is unquestionably superstition. The Lord of mankind has bestowed upon us the faculty of reason whereby we may discern the realities of things. How then can man rightfully accept any proposition which is not in conformity with the processes of reason and the principles of science? Assuredly such a course cannot inspire man with confidence and real belief.

© Copyright Original Source

But that's a far cry from stating that Baha'i scripture is fallible in matters of science.

For more on the Baha'i Faith and Science you can check the following wikipedia link, but it does have a bit of an apologetic bent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%...th_and_science

The authoritative view, as espoused by the Universal House of Justice on matters of scriptural inerrancy and science can be read here:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj_infallibility_abdulbaha

It is a human tendency, against which the Manifestation warns us, to measure His statements against the inaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind. We tend to take them and place them within one or other of the existing categories of human philosophy or science while, in reality, they transcend these and will, if properly understood, open new and vast horizons to our understanding.

© Copyright Original Source

And here:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/compilation_science_technology.html#14

It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.

© Copyright Original Source

These are sufficient to describe the relationship between the Baha'i Faith scripture and science, which you call official. The main premise of the Baha'i Faith is that both spiritual and physical changes and evolves over time in terms of Progressive Revelation, and the progressive evolving nature of the knowledge of the physical world through sciences, and the other disciplines

[OingoBoingo]

Good to see that post #85 wasn't your last effort after all.

These are sufficient to describe the relationship between the Baha'i Faith scripture and science, which you call official. The main premise of the Baha'i Faith is that both spiritual and physical changes and evolves over time in terms of Progressive Revelation, and the progressive evolving nature of the knowledge of the physical world through sciences, and the other disciplines

None of the citations I provided support your view that "physical sciences in scripture is not considered infallible nor inerrantinaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind", and that his statements transcend human philosophy and science. Which basically amounts to something like, "All your 'humanparticular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.

Source: Religion and Evolution Reconciled: �Abdu�l-Bah�s Comments on Evolution by Courosh Mehanian and Stephen R. Friberg

The present scientific point of view is not always correct, nor is the truth limited to only what science can explain

© Copyright Original Source

Hmm.

[NormATive]

Actually I do not consider the above significant reformers in Christianity. For example Martin Luther believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible, literal Genesis and rejected modern cosmology, and endorsed a violent persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews.

I think that Martin Luther and John Calvin had a profound effect on the Christian faith in the Protestant reforms and the development of Capitalism.

St. Augustine St. Thomas Aquinas were more into philosophical justification of Christian Faith not reform.

Isn't St. Augustine responsible for the concept of original sin? I think City of God is dripping with guilt and dualism, which has profoundly influenced modern Christianity. Aquinas allowed for critical criticism of the Bible and the unraveling of the Church's dependence on mystery.

St Paul (Saul), no reform here, he established the Hellenist Roman foundation of Christianity.

...and the dissolution of the Jewish followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

John Paul II like our present pope advocated limited reforms under the already firmly established Doctrine, Dogma, and Disaplines of the Roman Church. Neither pope has openly advocated any radical reform of the foundation of the church.

No, but again, their reforms allowed individual reformers within the Church the freedom to begin movements (liberation theology in South America comes to mind).

Jesus of Nazareth would be considered a reformer outside the traditional Churches like Unitarian Universalists, but not within the churches. They consider him the Messiah and the Revealer of a new revelation from God that fulfilled Judaism.

I was mentioning Jesus as having influence on the Jewish faith. There is quite a bit of Talmudic literature that deals with the issue of all the failed messiahs throughout history. I think that Jesus was the beginning of the end of the messianic era in Judaism.

If you are interested I would like to discuss Hillel in another thread.

I would enjoy that.

Attempts at reform in Islam, like Christianity, results in more divisions and violence.

I really think the reforms of all of these Abrahamic religions is undergoing a quiet revolution from within. Within the hearts and minds of individual believers.

Subject of an upcoming thread: I seriously believe that the radicalization of Islam is directly a product of Western countries, to colonize, subdivide the Islamic world dividing ethic and religious division like a pie for there own plans to manipulate, colonize and control the Middle East, and their resources. There is also a distinct pattern to suppress and destroy moderate Islamic political parties and groups who supported democracy over the past 100 years or more. The USA and other western countries supported corrupt military and royal families that also suppressed moderate Islam.

A really good book I read many years ago that sheds quite a bit of light on the subject is Robert Lacey's The Kingdom: http://www.amazon.com/The-Kingdom-Ar.../dp/0786106433

It covers Saudi Arabian history (and the development of the Wahhabist Islamic movement) up until the Iranian hostage crises in 79-80. His second book, Inside the Kingdom, picks up where the first one left off and covers the current situation in the Middle East and Saudi Arabia in particular: http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Kingdom.../dp/0143118277

NORM

[shunyadragon]

Good to see that post #85 wasn't your last effort after all.

None of the citations I provided support your view that "physical sciences in scripture is not considered infallible nor inerrant". So, you were wrong on that point.

I find no problem that based on the citations the statements on the nature of our physical existence in Baha'i scripture would be infallible. The bottom line remains that science remains independent of religion as far as the search for scientific knowledge of our physical existence, and ALL scripture including Baha'i scripture must be understood in the light of the knowledge of science.

The source you cited did correctly state that all knowledge and truth is not revealed in the scientific knowledge of our physical world, and that the Baha'i Faith does not limited the methodology of the search for knowledge to the methods of science.

[robrecht]

... ALL scripture including Baha'i scripture must be understood in the light of the knowledge of science. ...

This is the perspective that I have come to know as yours, but I'm still wondering if that is the 'orthodox' Baha'i understanding. You said earlier that "The spiritual laws of the Katab-i-aqdas is not likely subject to change and the heart of scriptural inerrancy in the Baha'i Faith, until a later future Revelation." Are the spiritual laws reformable by scientific investigation or do they require another revelation?

See my previous question (Post #125), in response to your post (119) and some of the other information I read on the International House of Justice website:

"So, do I understand this correctly? The spiritual law that women may not be elected to the International House of Justice is not likely to change but could change, but only with another act of divine revelation and not through the evolution of scientific knowledge nor the decisions of the International House of Justice. Is that correct?"

[seer]

I think that Martin Luther and John Calvin had a profound effect on the Christian faith in the Protestant reforms and the development of Capitalism.

NORM

Really, that is a good thing, but I have never read that - do you have references?

[shunyadragon]

This is the perspective that I have come to know as yours, but I'm still wondering if that is the 'orthodox' Baha'i understanding. You said earlier that "The spiritual laws of the Katab-i-aqdas is not likely subject to change and the heart of scriptural inerrancy in the Baha'i Faith, until a later future Revelation." Are the spiritual laws reformable by scientific investigation or do they require another revelation?

First, the Katab-i-aqdas does not deal with or address knowledge of our physical existence that would reformed or changed by scientific investigation. Commentary on the nature of our physical existence by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, and Shoghi Effendi is subject to be understood and interpretated by the evolving knowledge of science.

See my previous question (Post #125), in response to your post (119) and some of the other information I read on the International House of Justice website:

"So, do I understand this correctly? The spiritual law that women may not be elected to the International House of Justice is not likely to change but could change, but only with another act of divine revelation and not through the evolution of scientific knowledge nor the decisions of the International House of Justice. Is that correct?"

As far as change, I do not believe this could change by other means, based on my review of the writings.

[robrecht]

First, the Katab-i-aqdas does not deal with or address knowledge of our physical existence that would reformed or changed by scientific investigation. Commentary on the nature of our physical existence by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, and Shoghi Effendi is subject to be understood and interpretated by the evolving knowledge of science.

So, the progressive revelation that is contained within the Bahai' holy scriptures only concerns spiritual laws and not scientific knowledge, and these can only evolve with a subsequent revelation. Thus, it seems that the commentary on the nature of our physical existence by Baha'u'lla are only contained in other writings. The website spoke about other revelatory texts of Baha'u'lla that are not included in the Baha'i holy scriptures--are these also considered inspired and inerrant or infallible? Are all of these writings only concerning spiritual laws and therefore also not reformable by science? Or do some of these other revelatory writings deal with or address knowledge of our physical existence?

As far as change, I do not believe this could change by other means, based on my review of the writings.

Is it commonly believed by Baha'i that a new revelation will indeed occur and might contradict a prior revelation or is this just your speculation?

[OingoBoingo]

I find no problem that based on the citations the statements on the nature of our physical existence in Baha'i scripture would be infallible.

Even ethereal matter, the forces of which are said in physics to be heat, light, electricity and magnetism, is an intellectual reality, and is not sensible. In the same way, nature, also, in its essence is an intellectual reality and is not sensible; the human spirit is an intellectual, not sensible reality. really mean it literally afterall." Sometimes that excuse is clearly legitimate, but when you're providing the actual definition for what you mean in the same statement, eh, its horse hockey, and everyone knows it.

The bottom line remains that science remains independent of religion as far as the search for scientific knowledge of our physical existence, and ALL scripture including Baha'i scripture must be understood in the light of the knowledge of science.

Science and religion are not independent from one another in the Baha'i Faith. Quoting again from the Journal of Baha'i Studies:

the present scientific point of view is not always correct", and that "science should not be misused to turn people’s hearts away from God." This gives Baha'i adherents a whole heck of a lot of wiggle room. Basically, all the Baha'i leadership has to say if they disagree with the current scientific consensus on a topic is something like "wait and see, you'll find out that we were right all along". That's why the Baha'i Faith can get away with statements about homosexuality being an aberrant affliction that requires treatment despite modern psychologists saying otherwise.

The source you cited did correctly state that all knowledge and truth is not revealed in the scientific knowledge of our physical world, and that the Baha'i Faith does not limited the methodology of the search for knowledge to the methods of science.

Yep. So basically the Baha'i Faith can get away with any view and say "well, scientists don't currently know the actual truth that has been revealed by our inspired and infallible writings. Maybe someday they'll learn." Or they could hypothetically say, "well, yes, the standard scientific method, and methodological naturalism in general, is one way of doing science, but we as Baha'i believers don't limit "science" to those methodologies. We also think non-falsifiable methodologies are legit and have merit as well." I'm not saying any Baha'i believers actually say these things, but, hypothetically, they have the wiggle room to do so.

[shunyadragon]

So, the progressive revelation that is contained within the Bahai' holy scriptures only concerns spiritual laws and not scientific knowledge, and these can only evolve with a subsequent revelation. Thus, it seems that the commentary on the nature of our physical existence by Baha'u'lla are only contained in other writings. The website spoke about other revelatory texts of Baha'u'lla that are not included in the Baha'i holy scriptures--are these also considered inspired and inerrant or infallible? Are all of these writings only concerning spiritual laws and therefore also not reformable by science? Or do some of these other revelatory writings deal with or address knowledge of our physical existence?

The spiritual laws are not reformable by science. The knowledge of science is progressive and evolving as a part and reflection of the spiritual evolution, but independent of the direct 'Revelation' of the Manifestation of God' or the Messiah. In the writings it describes the release of knowledge to humanity at the time of the Revelation, and much of this knowledge comes in the form of science. will provide references next post.

Yes, there are numerous tablets of Baha'u'llah revealing the spiritual truths of the New Age. My favorite are relatively short Tablets: The mystical Seven Valleys and Four Valleys, and the Hidden Words.

Is it commonly believed by Baha'i that a new revelation will indeed occur and might contradict a prior revelation or is this just your speculation?

No not speculation. I will give a reference to this in a future post. Progressive Revelation essentially involves change and evolution of spiritual laws and teachings in the past and the future. The Baha'i Faith Represents the end of the Adamic cycle, and the beginning of new cycle of Manifestations of God for 100,000 years or more.