I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God

[Starlight]

For starters evil cannot exist without good that can be hurt.

finite and infinite. Temporal and eternal. Caused and uncaused. Space and things in space not being the space.

Athiests by default are irrational and while being an athiest cannot know one's self to be irrational.

Your random pronouncements always seem very zen-like.

Unfortunately they don't really contribute anything to the discussion. They tend to be borderline incomprehensible nonsense. On the rare occasions they make sense you don't seem to offer anyone any reasons why we should believe them to be true.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

uh, no.

Yes. The comma suggests arriving in paradise at a later juncture, not immediately.

and yet they are all remarkably very close to each other.

See my earlier remarks.

So much so, that it is easily determined where the variations were introduced and what the autographs must have said.

As there are no original MSS how do you determine what specific texts or words are variations, at what exact point in the text these were introduced [which requires access to an original text for comparison], and what "the autographs must have said"?

The fact remains that if you won't even bother to read the bible then you have no business debating it.

Why do you assume I have not read the Bible?

[Sparko]

Yes. The comma suggests arriving in paradise at a later juncture, not immediately.

paradise isn't purgatory.

See my earlier remarks.

As there are no original MSS how do you determine what specific texts or words are variations, at what exact point in the text these were introduced [which requires access to an original text for comparison], and what "the autographs must have said"?

Textual criticism. It's what it is for. If you have 1000 copies that say "Bob ate an apple" and a hundred that say "Bob, ate an apple" and more that say "Bob ate the apple" and "Bor ate teh apple" and "Bob eats the apple" and "bob ate the aple" and a few that say "bob ate a pear" you can pretty much determine that the original said "Bob ate an apple"

Why do you assume I have not read the Bible?

based on your posts that seem to indicate that you have not, as you keep proposing outlandish "theories" based solely on various books you have read. Like Paul wasn't a jew and never claimed to be.

Have you read the whole bible? I mean actually READ it, from start to finish, not just looking up a verse or two here and there? If so, which version(s)?

[37818]

Why allow 'evil' that can hurt 'good' in the first place?

Evil exists only if good can be hurt. There is to be a New Heaven and Earth, Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:27.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

paradise isn't purgatory.

Well done have a cookie!

The placing of the comma as in, Verily I say unto thee this day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise suggests there is a hiatus between death and entering Paradise. The notion of a proto-purgatory has its roots in non Christian writings [see Heraclides Ponticus and Plato as examples]. The concept of a place or state of punishment or purification where the souls of those who have died in a state of grace undergo punishment believed to be required for forgiven sins and expiate their unforgiven venial sins before contemplating the Beatific Vision is part of the western Roman Catholic doctrine and has been since the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries.

Textual criticism. It's what it is for. If you have 1000 copies that say "Bob ate an apple" and a hundred that say "Bob, ate an apple" and more that say "Bob ate the apple" and "Bor ate teh apple" and "Bob eats the apple" and "bob ate the aple" and a few that say "bob ate a pear" you can pretty much determine that the original said "Bob ate an apple"

based on your posts that seem to indicate that you have not,

By which I assume you mean that I do not accept the theological construct of inerrancy which, I also assume, you do.

as you keep proposing outlandish "theories" based solely on various books you have read.

hillbilly

Like Paul wasn't a jew and never claimed to be.

It is a textual fact that Paul never calls himself a Jew. Read the Greek for yourself.

I might ask you if you have ever dispassionately and critically read these texts and compared them with one another?

[Tassman]

Evil exists only if good can be hurt.

Why allow good to be hurt?

[Sparko]

Well done have a cookie!

The placing of the comma as in, Verily I say unto thee this day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise suggests there is a hiatus between death and entering Paradise. The notion of a proto-purgatory has its roots in non Christian writings [see Heraclides Ponticus and Plato as examples]. The concept of a place or state of punishment or purification where the souls of those who have died in a state of grace undergo punishment believed to be required for forgiven sins and expiate their unforgiven venial sins before contemplating the Beatific Vision is part of the western Roman Catholic doctrine and has been since the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries.

I know what purgatory is, and how the Catholics justify it. It isn't because of the the Thief.

Even many protestants believe that perhaps there was a temporary place of the dead for the old testament saints in hades called "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise" - This is not purgatory but a place where the saved went before Jesus came to open the way to heaven. After his sacrifice Jesus led the saints into heaven (Ephesians 4:8)




I know that. But we can use textual criticism to reconstruct what the autographs said to a high degree of certainty. Do I have to keep repeating myself? I believe I stated such at least twice before.

hillbilly

LOL. And what are your credentials?


You never did answer my question about if you have read the entire bible and what versions.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I think it's accurate to call Jesus 'socialist', yes. It's a little anachronistic. But, on the other hand, he thinks the rich are going to hell, is deeply concerned about wealth inequality and the exploitation of the poor by the rich, speaks in idealised terms about everyone being made equal, requires his followers to give away all their possessions, and the first thing his followers do on his death is form a commune where all possessions are shared. Looks pretty identical to what we know as socialism

I must disagree.

Socialism is a nineteenth century political, economic, and social philosophy.

Most religions contain an element of altruism and some include asceticism. In the Egyptian Book of the Dead the first of the Declaration of Innocence made to Osiris include statements as to the benevolence and humanitarianism of the deceased during their lifetime. The Qumran community practised an ascetic lifestyle with an emphasis on poverty, altruism, and justice; and similar ideals can be found some branches of Buddhism and Hinduism. None of which would lead me to consider any of them to be socialist. That such ideals were later adopted by groups that arose as a result of industrialisation within Europe does not make those ideals, of themselves, socialist concepts.

I'd say the opposite. If anything he seems to have pacifist leanings, and his level of interest in the Romans is minimal. The subjects of his criticism are nearly always the rich who aren't helping the poor, and the Pharisees whose ritual purity laws are excluding the poor from social acceptability. Obviously it's possible that the 'kingdom of God' language is a direct reference to overthrowing the Romans by force, but there's virtually nothing else in the text that suggests that's how it ought to be understood. And in his own interaction with the Roman centurion, he gives the man some of the highest praise we see Jesus give in the gospels.

The character is described as a ἑκατοντάρχης which is the equivalent of the Latin centurion but this particular individual would most probably have been serving in the army of Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Galilee and client king to Rome, notthe Jewsinnocent/righteous man.

These trial scenarios are attempts to deflect away from the fact that Jesus was executed for a political crime not a religiouscustomthe JewsRomanthe JewsZealots than those early Christian apologists would have us believe.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I know what purgatory is, and how the Catholics justify it. It isn't because of the the Thief.

Well done again. Have another cookie.

I gave the text with its two variants [pending on the placing of the comma] as an exemplar. As I have pointed out the idea of a form of proto-purgatory predates Christianity.

I know that. But we can use textual criticism to reconstruct what the autographs said to a high degree of certainty.

No we cannot. There is no "high degree of certainty" that is a fallacious comment. There is a degree of probability, which is by no means the same thing. Without any complete original MSS with which to compare later copies we cannot be absolutely certain what the originals may have contained.

Furthermore, our earliest complete MSS of various NT texts date from the mid fourth century by which time Christianity, having been granted toleration, had gained a great deal of temporal power and patronage.

[Starlight]

Socialism is a nineteenth century political, economic, and social philosophy.

To my mind, if a group of people form a commune and share their possessions, then that's a socialist commune, and it's not particularly relevant whether that occurs in the 19th century, or 1st century. Calling it 'socialism' or not based on what year it happened in, seems strange.

The character is described as a ἑκατοντάρχης which is the equivalent of the Latin centurion but this particular individual would most probably have been serving in the army of Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Galilee and client king to Rome, notthe Jewsinnocent/righteous man.

These trial scenarios are attempts to deflect away from the fact that Jesus was executed for a political crime not a religiouscustomthe JewsRomanthe JewsZealots than those early Christian apologists would have us believe.

My main concern with all this is basically that you are saying "they would have hidden the evidence of Jesus being anti-Roman, that's why we see no evidence of it". So it then becomes possible Jesus was anti-Roman but not something we have any evidence for. Furthermore, what evidence that there does exist in the gospels on the subject, points to the opposite. Dismissing all that as a later invention for propaganda reasons, then puts us in a situation where you are asking us to ignore the evidence we do have and believe the evidence we don't have. You might be correct, that Jesus was zealot-aligned, but that's not a conclusion that even a reasonably-sceptical analysis of the evidence warrants.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

To my mind, if a group of people form a commune and share their possessions, then that's a socialist commune, and it's not particularly relevant whether that occurs in the 19th century, or 1st century. Calling it 'socialism' or not based on what year it happened in, seems strange.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. I would hardly imagine that the ancient Egyptians had any concept that the ethical behaviours expected within their society were socialist or that various cenobites consider their mode of living to have socialist leanings.

My main concern with all this is basically that you are saying "they would have hidden the evidence of Jesus being anti-Roman, that's why we see no evidence of it". So it then becomes possible Jesus was anti-Roman but not something we have any evidence for. Furthermore, what evidence that there does exist in the gospels on the subject, points to the opposite. Dismissing all that as a later invention for propaganda reasons, then puts us in a situation where you are asking us to ignore the evidence we do have and believe the evidence we don't have. You might be correct, that Jesus was zealot-aligned, but that's not a conclusion that even a reasonably-sceptical analysis of the evidence warrants.

anointed kings of the Jewsgreat fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these thingspossibly more serious.

[Sparko]

Well done again. Have another cookie.

Dang, you are so patronizing.

I gave the text with its two variants [pending on the placing of the comma] as an exemplar. As I have pointed out the idea of a form of proto-purgatory predates Christianity.

No. And the verse about the Thief isn't even the main reason for that idea in the first place. It is the parable of Lazarus the beggar.

No we cannot. There is no "high degree of certainty" that is a fallacious comment. There is a degree of probability, which is by no means the same thing. Without any complete original MSS with which to compare later copies we cannot be absolutely certain what the originals may have contained.

I think you just misunderstood a phrase of speech there. I meant that we are very close to certainty. Of course, we can never be absolutely certain, but we can be very sure of what the originals must have said, based on the variants.

I noticed you skipped over my question about what are YOUR credentials.

[Christianbookworm]

These fools don't fully understand exactly how the Universe works and think they know better than God? I almost want them to get a lecture from God concerning His sovereignty. Almost, because them actually being in a place to get lectured might mean they're about to get kicked out of His presence for eternity. Too bad Jesus has better things to do then argue with atheists on the internet.

[JimL]

These fools don't fully understand exactly how the Universe works and think they know better than God? I almost want them to get a lecture from God concerning His sovereignty. Almost, because them actually being in a place to get lectured might mean they're about to get kicked out of His presence for eternity. Too bad Jesus has better things to do then argue with atheists on the internet.

Really? What better things do you think Jesus has to do?

[Christianbookworm]

Really? What better things do you think Jesus has to do?

Sustain the universe, be the advocate for every single human who has trusted in Him for salvation, etc. Caring for children in heaven would be higher priority and I don't know if He personally does that.