Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You are getting back into semantics. You do that when you have no argument.

My argument is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. That they are accused of doing so is nothing but Christian apologetics and has led to the Jewish people being persecuted by the Christian church, and its adherents, for upward of 1700 years.

The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be executed by Rome - hence for the Jewish people, Jesus, as with all those other messianic claimants before and after him, was not the Messiah.

From Jews for Judaism https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowl...s-the-messiah/

[Dan Zebiri]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

I would not consider NT Wright an unbiased source.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

He is not unbiased. He is, without doubt, a reputable New Testament scholar but he is unable to put aside his particular religious viewpoint when he writes or speaks.

There are other NT scholars who hold religious beliefs but who able to dissociate themselves from those beliefs in their writings.

[JonathanL]

He is not unbiased. He is, without doubt, a reputable New Testament scholar but he is unable to put aside his particular religious viewpoint when he writes or speaks.

There are other NT scholars who hold religious beliefs but who able to dissociate themselves from those beliefs in their writings.

As I said to shuny, unless you can demonstrate that his bias is leading him to make erroneous conclusions the mere fact that he is biased means jack all.

[Christian3]

Only for the fact that the Romans executed Jesus by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. That was not in doubt.

Jesus was a threat to Rome AND to the Jewish leaders.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

As I said to shuny, unless you can demonstrate that his bias is leading him to make erroneous conclusions the mere fact that he is biased means jack all.

Erroneous in what regard?

[JonathanL]

Erroneous in what regard?

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

[shunyadragon]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

Historical arguments that are based on known independent historical records, and archaeology without a religious agenda.

The Romans convicted and executed Jesus by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome and claiming to be the King of the Jews like others who made the same claim, and the Jews could not stop it if they wanted to, and rejected the claims of Jesus as most by far rejected all the Messianic figures that made the claim in this period of history.

[shunyadragon]

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

Whether Jews killed Jesus.

[mikewhitney]

The preaching in Acts 2:36 still was just an appeal to the general audience for the circumstances of Jesus' death. This sort of verbiage is akin to saying to Brits, "you went to war against Argentina in the Falkland Islands." It can be leaders who actually did this -- but the statement of Peter is within normal speech. This was preaching with a comparison of who Jesus is and the unjustified death of him. Any misunderstanding of this text by anyone since then is simply the act of misunderstanding the text. Well, there was also persecution of Christians by Jews, as done by Saul. We also see how the mobs rose up against Paul in various cities (both by Jews and by Gentiles). So the Jew-Gentile relations remained rocky in that era.
So, acts 2:36 is a simple documentation of what Peter preached rather than some evil attempt to turn this Messianic Judaism against Jews. To read this any harsher than I have explained is to push a false metanarrative, beyond what the text can justify.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

If it is theology, it is all opinion. If it is the known historical context in which certain ideas originated, that is another matter.

[mikewhitney]

If it is theology, it is all opinion. If it is the known historical context in which certain ideas originated, that is another matter.

You had recently posted that Jews knew their theology very well. Now you are back to saying theology is all opinion. Doublemindedness.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You had recently posted that Jews knew their theology very well.

The Jews knew their theology insofar as the Messiah was concerned, and given that those criteria have never been fulfilled, the Messiah has not yet arrived.

You believe in a literal resurrection. However, it does not follow that what you believe actually took place.

Now you are back to saying theology is all opinion.

At the end of the day all theology is opinion, and on occasion backed up by force with the threat of dire punishments for those who dissent.

[mikewhitney]

The Jews knew their theology insofar as the Messiah was concerned, and given that those criteria have never been fulfilled, the Messiah has not yet arrived.

You believe in a literal resurrection. However, it does not follow that what you believe actually took place.


At the end of the day all theology is opinion, and on occasion backed up by force with the threat of dire punishments for those who dissent.

You can go full postmodern on us and say everything is only opinion or interpretation.

Paul's early commission to kill Christians was based on his studied Jewish opinion which, when confronted, he turned away from his incorrect opinion.

We have many early Christians who faced that dire punishment. The deaths were actual, not just opinions.

Maybe we can find a way to stop unnecessary deaths.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You can go full postmodern on us and say everything is only opinion or interpretation.

You are entirely free to do so, if that is your wish.

Paul's early commission to kill Christians was based on his studied Jewish opinion which, when confronted, he turned away from his incorrect opinion.

What early commission and from whom?

We have many early Christians who faced that dire punishment. The deaths were actual, not just opinions.

Not as many as later martyrologies would lead you to believe.

Maybe we can find a way to stop unnecessary deaths.

The Christian church and religion has always been quite prepared to destroy those who do not accept the prevailing orthodoxy [whatever that was deemed to be].