Originally posted by Chrawnus
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The reason people reject the resurrection
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostApart from telling us something we already know, you are jumping to conclusions. I never stated emphatically that they could not have done so, but remarked that it was unlikely they would have done so.
You must only have skimmed through my post, because at least the part about economic means is touched upon in the works I cited. And Paul being questioned by the congregation at Corinth is not only fairly likely, as, 1 Cor 1:10-17 clearly shows, Paul actually had to argue for his authority, because not a substantial amount of people in the Corinthian congregation had another Christian authority figure that they preferred listening to instead of Paul:
IOW, your claim that Paul was held in such high esteem that any of the members of the congregation would have been unlikely to question his written words is directly contradicted by Paul's own statements.
Also, it is very likely that Paul shared the creed in 1 Cor 15 to the Corinthians orally first before writing it down in the letter, (" For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received", seems to imply oral transmission), and based on the fact that it was something of "first importance" it was probably one of the first things he shared with the Corinthians, when he had yet to establish much of an authority with the congregation.Last edited by JonathanL; 06-24-2020, 09:59 PM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell, contrary to your opinion, is the translation of the New International Version (NIV). This modern translation was done by top bible scholars using the earliest, highest quality manuscripts available. It is highly regarded as one of the most authoritative translations of the bible.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt is not at all NIV.
Originally posted by Tassman View Postthree years
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell, contrary to your opinion, is the translation of the New International Version (NIV). This modern translation was done by top bible scholars using the earliest, highest quality manuscripts available. It is highly regarded as one of the most authoritative translations of the bible.
G2477
ἱστορέω
historeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to enquire into, examine, investigate
2) to find out, learn, by enquiry
3) to gain knowledge of by visiting
3a) of some distinguished person, to become personally acquainted with, know face to faceSource Thayer's Greek Definitions [Color added by poster.]
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostEven if we grant that "to get acquainted with" is a possible translation (and it clearly is), the context of the passage clearly shows that Paul is using it to argue that it took three years before he even bothered confirming his teaching as being in agreement with the Jerusalem Church, in order to show that he did not derive his authority and message from other humans, but from God.You're correct that my previous claim was probably too strong. I should probably rephrase it to "it's pretty obvious that his intent in writing about his visit to Peter was to argue for his own independence in relation to the Jerusalem Church, but that his statement at the same time reveals that he DID in fact go to Jerusalem to consult with Peter, even if it was relatively late after his religious experience on the road to Damascus".The argument has never been that Paul needed to consult with the church in Jerusalem because he had insufficient knowledge. The argument is that Paul is saying that he did indeed go and confirm his teachings as being in accord with the Jerusalem church with Cephas/Peters, regardless of whether he was sure on his own behalf of the truth of the teachings he had received via divine revelation.
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I got your point a long time ago. It's not as strong a point as you imagine it to be.
As the translation note I referenced in one of my earlier posts makes clear:
Emphasis mine.
In other words, "to get acquainted with" is not technically incorrect, but it can give the wrong impression.
So yes, it probably was an information-gathering trip, because that's literally what the greek word used implies.
Paul wouldn't need to confirm it for his own sake. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have been useful for him to confirm his teachings with the Jerusalem church in order to convince the congregations he wrote to.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostMy argument was against your claim that it was unlikely, not that it was impossible. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but you are inventing stuff that I never said.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou must only have skimmed through my post, because at least the part about economic means is touched upon in the works I cited.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAnd Paul being questioned by the congregation at Corinth is not only fairly likely, as, 1 Cor 1:10-17 clearly shows, Paul actually had to argue for his authority, because not a substantial amount of people in the Corinthian congregation had another Christian authority figure that they preferred listening to instead of Paul:
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIOW, your claim that Paul was held in such high esteem that any of the members of the congregation would have been unlikely to question his written words is directly contradicted by Paul's own statements.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAlso, it is very likely that Paul shared the creed in 1 Cor 15 to the Corinthians orally first before writing it down in the letterOriginally posted by Chrawnus View Postwhen he had yet to establish much of an authority with the congregation.
As a final point I think we have expended enough time on this issue."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Trucker View PostRead the verses you mention in context!!"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI have. He does rather "go on" doesn't he?
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 regarding zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness that is in the law, blameless. ..... [HCSBP]" is worthless and that he considers it all nothing as compared to knowing Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior!!! All of which drastically changes your spin on the 2nd and third verses!!!
Paul, was born into the upper crust of Judaism, was well educated, and a privileged man! But gave it up to preach the risen Christ in the face of unbelievable and prolonged persecution, torture, and eventually death rather than to renounce his new found Savior!! Something sure changed the man in a most drastic fashion .... AS IT ALSO DID ALL BUT ONE OF HIS GROUP OF FOLLOWERS. From cowards afraid of a maiden to men willing to die for the privilege of dying a horrible death in service to their beloved Savior .... JESUS THE MESSIAH!!!! And, that same thing has actually changed millions since!!!
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Originally posted by Trucker View PostPaul, was born into the upper crust of Judaism, was well educated, and a privileged man! But gave it up to preach the risen Christ in the face of unbelievable and prolonged persecution, torture, and eventually death rather than to renounce his new found Savior!!
None of which suggests high born status nor mentions Jerusalem as his birthplace.
Of course you might be right - and he may have come from a more privileged background. He may have been a Herodian."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYour fellow believers would tell you that Acts informs us Paul came from Tarsus, and that he had to earn his living as a tent maker during his travels.
Also see here: https://intent.org/why-did-paul-make-tents/
And here: https://relevantmagazine.com/love-an...l-make-living/
Hatred for Paul and Christianity in general blind you. Get over it!!
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNone of which suggests high born status nor mentions Jerusalem as his birthplace.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostOf course you might be right - and he may have come from a more privileged background. He may have been a Herodian.
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Originally posted by Trucker View PostEvidently you did not read the Scriptures I quoted you ...or is it that you just ignored them in order to make your anti-Paul anti Chrisian claims????
I fail to see what relevance your two blog sites provide.
Originally posted by Trucker View PostAnd he may have been precisely what he claimed to be"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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