Originally posted by shunyadragon
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The reason people reject the resurrection
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostUse this calendar tool: https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo help there is still a range of possible years.
His first year is known to be 14AD. There is no year zero in countiing the years. So the fifteenth year gives us a starting year of 28AD for Jesus' ministry.
John records three Passovers in Jesus' ministry. Making the crucifixion 30AD. According to 30AD Mark 14:12-16 would be on a Wednesday. Being the day before the crucifixionLast edited by 37818; 06-06-2020, 04:39 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostFair enough, and groups of people claimed to see Christ risen, and group hallucinations are unlikely."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe earliest account of the resurrection is from Paul [I Corinthians 15:1-15] Given that he was establishing a new cult, it cannot be entirely ruled out that it was nothing but his imagination. Clearly from Paul's authentic letters he saw the crucifixion and resurrection in soteriological terms. We therefore cannot rule out the possibility that this was part of his own theological invention.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostBased on the 4 gospel accounts there is a historical date for the crucifixion. Luke 3:1, Mark 14:12-16, And three Passovers in John's account."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe earliest account of the resurrection is from Paul [I Corinthians 15:1-15] Given that he was establishing a new cult, it cannot be entirely ruled out that it was nothing but his imagination. Clearly from Paul's authentic letters he saw the crucifixion and resurrection in soteriological terms. We therefore cannot rule out the possibility that this was part of his own theological invention.
that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
then to the Twelve.
6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
most of them are still alive,
but some have fallen asleep.
7 Then He appeared to James,
then to all the apostles.
This is a creed passed down to Apostle Paul. It did not originate with him.
1. Paul's words "delivered" and "received" are technical terms for passing on tradition. So, what Paul is saying is that this materials was not his own, but received from another source.
2. A number of the words are non-Pauline which indicates another source. They are: "for our sins," "according to the scriptures," "he has been raised," the "third day," "he was seen," and "the twelve."
3. The creed is organized in a stylized, parallel form, thereby indicating an oral and confessional nature.
4. There are indications that there may be a Semitic source, such as the use of the Aramaic "Cephas" for Peter, which would point to an earlier source before Paul's Greek translation.
5. Other indications of ancient Hebrew narration include the triple usage of "and that" along with the two references to the Scripture being fulfilled.
Some date this creed from 2 to 5 years after Jesus' crucifixion.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNot overly reliable sources for historical accuracy.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Christian3 View Post1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:
that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
then to the Twelve.
6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
most of them are still alive,
but some have fallen asleep.
7 Then He appeared to James,
then to all the apostles.
This is a creed passed down to Apostle Paul. It did not originate with him.
Originally posted by Christian3 View PostSome date this creed from 2 to 5 years after Jesus' crucifixion."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo you believe. That belief does not change the fact the New Testament account actually identifies an actual date in history."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHow do you know? Where are the accounts from those other 500+ individuals?
On what evidence?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, they're quoted as eyewitnesses, so anyone interested at that time could have checked to verify Paul's claim.
Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSee what Christian3 said, evidence that this is a creed passed down to Paul, and if Paul's letter is early, then the creed must be earlier still.
Nothing else."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe only evidence that we have of this creed being "passed down" is what Paul tells us in that letter.
Nothing else.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostPaul having the creed in 1 Cor 15 passed on to him via fellow Christians is such a trivial and non-controversial detail that unless you have strong arguments to the contrary there is absolutely no reason to reject Paul's statement on the issue. You might dispute the content of the creed being passed on to him, but objecting to Paul's statement about how this tradition was handed down to him on the basis that we only have his word for it borders on extreme hyperskepticism."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt is hardly trivial given that the resurrection and a belief in the resurrection is one of the main tenets of Christianity.
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