What Is Man?

[Jedidiah]

No Tass this is evolution in motion. Just like when the northern chimpanzee slaughtered all the males of the southern group. Remember the the laws of nature determined all this, as you have made perfectly clear. We are religious because we are determined to be religious, we murder because we are determined to murder. Where is you reciprocity and altruism now? Where are the inalienable rights of those murdered in the ditch I linked? Do you believe that you are more evolved than these Arabs? That you are somehow made of different stuff? If religion is a destructive force well that was simply how the process determined it. BTW the atheists have done their share of mass murder too.

There are a lot of lies and misconceptions put forth in the world about Christianity, and religion in general. "But there is one common misconception about religion that is voiced often and consistently as an obvious truth -- often by educated, thoughtful people --that is just not factually true: The idea that religion has been the cause of most wars." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-...b_1400766.html). The fact is, according to Rabbi Alan Lurie in the link above, that less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare result from religious conflict. Most are secular. Atheism has indeed caused a great deal of war and death.

[seer]

There are a lot of lies and misconceptions put forth in the world about Christianity, and religion in general. "But there is one common misconception about religion that is voiced often and consistently as an obvious truth -- often by educated, thoughtful people --that is just not factually true: The idea that religion has been the cause of most wars." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-...b_1400766.html). The fact is, according to Rabbi Alan Lurie in the link above, that less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare result from religious conflict. Most are secular. Atheism has indeed caused a great deal of war and death.

Yes, but facts don't matter.

[NormATive]

Do you agree Norm?

I have no idea of what in the hell you are talking about. Your words read like those junior high school notes kids would pass each other when the teacher wasn't looking.

NORM

[Tassman]

No Tass this is evolution in motion. Just like when the northern chimpanzee slaughtered all the males of the southern group. Remember the the laws of nature determined all this, as you have made perfectly clear. We are religious because we are determined to be religious, we murder because we are determined to murder. Where is you reciprocity and altruism now? Where are the inalienable rights of those murdered in the ditch I linked? Do you believe that you are more evolved than these Arabs? That you are somehow made of different stuff? If religion is a destructive force well that was simply how the process determined it. BTW the atheists have done their share of mass murder too.

Good that Seer finally understands this point. He even points to present day Iraq as proof.

I don't know how you did it, Tass, but; good job!

NORM

[seer]

That was not the point Tass and you know it. You said that all our actions are determined by the laws of nature, so when the Jihadists murder thousands they do so because the laws of nature determined them to act that way. No foul, just animals doing what animals do. So where is your reciprocity and altruism in that situation? Where are your inalienable rights? Your whole argument is nonsensical. And not in keeping with the facts. And what consequences are you talking about - like with the northern chimpanzees we recently discussed? They came down and murdered all the southern males, took their females and their territory. Rather good consequences - so what is your point?

[seer]

I have no idea of what in the hell you are talking about. Your words read like those junior high school notes kids would pass each other when the teacher wasn't looking.

NORM

You know Norm, you are one of the most hypocritical person I have met on the web. You chide other because you think, they think, that they are superior, yet you often try and make yourself look superior with inane statements like the one above. You really do have issues, and you are really not that bright. BTW Homer, the question was - do you agree with Tass that human beings don't have free will and that all our behavior is predetermined by the laws of nature?

[NormATive]

You know Norm, you are one of the most hypocritical person I have met on the web. You chide other because you think, they think, that they are superior, yet you often try and make yourself look superior with inane statements like the one above. You really do have issues, and you are really not that bright. BTW Homer, the question was - do you agree with Tass that human beings don't have free will and that all our behavior is predetermined by the laws of nature?

Insulting me is more proof of your juvenile mien.

NORM

[NormATive]

There are a lot of lies and misconceptions put forth in the world about Christianity, and religion in general. "But there is one common misconception about religion that is voiced often and consistently as an obvious truth -- often by educated, thoughtful people --that is just not factually true: The idea that religion has been the cause of most wars." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-...b_1400766.html). The fact is, according to Rabbi Alan Lurie in the link above, that less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare result from religious conflict. Most are secular. Atheism has indeed caused a great deal of war and death.

That is a good article, Jedidiah. I agree that some who claim that "most wars are about religion" are mistaken. The obvious example Rabbi Lurie uses is WWI, probably the most stupid war of all time that had clearly imperialistic and nationalistic causes. Then there is our own Civil War, the Teutonic Wars, etc...

With all the hype about the War on Terrorism, this is an encouraging thought from the Rabbi's article:

But in a world with billions of people who are self-defined as religious, those who believe that violence is the will of God and that the murder of innocents is a holy act are a small, insane minority.

NORM

[Doug Shaver]

Source: Rabbi Lurie

But in a world with billions of people who are self-defined as religious, those who believe that violence is the will of God and that the murder of innocents is a holy act are a small, insane minority.

© Copyright Original Source

I can accept that only a minority of religious people are saying, "God commands us to kill those people." But as long as the majority has no better counterargument than "No, he doesn't," I'm not impressed by the majority's claim to be a force for good.

[Tassman]

That was not the point Tass and you know it. You said that all our actions are determined by the laws of nature,

so when the Jihadists murder thousands they do so because the laws of nature determined them to act that way. No foul, just animals doing what animals do. So where is your reciprocity and altruism in that situation? Where are your inalienable rights? Your whole argument is nonsensical. And not in keeping with the facts. And what consequences are you talking about - like with the northern chimpanzees we recently discussed? They came down and murdered all the southern males, took their females and their territory. Rather good consequences - so what is your point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKv2pWZkgrI

Conversely, YOU

[seer]

This is hollow Tass. Are you saying what the northern chimpanzees did to the southern males was not an genetically encoded behavior? That Natural selection has not also predisposed us towards murder, genocide, domination? And what the northern chimpanzees did was a great survival mechanism. They got a larger feeding ground and more females, and they flourished.


You can claim this but it is irrational. Is it not the laws of nature that determine what our instincts and behaviors are? If it is not the laws of nature that determine these then what is it? What determined the northern chimpanzees to slaughter the southern males?

[seer]

Insulting me is more proof of your juvenile mien.

NORM

Norm are you really this lost and illogical? You first insult me, then I insult you back. When I insult it is juvenile, but when you insult it is not? Hypocrite.

[NormATive]

Norm are you really this lost and illogical? You first insult me, then I insult you back. When I insult it is juvenile, but when you insult it is not? Hypocrite.

When did I insult you? Is "Homer" a term of endearment in your lexicon?

NORM

[Tassman]

This is hollow Tass. Are you saying what the northern chimpanzees did to the southern males was not an genetically encoded behavior?

Of course it was. The genetic predisposition for altruism and reciprocity etc. are tribal qualities. The social order maintained within a tribe does not necessarily extend towards rival tribes. Homo sapiens were the same at one time. One only has to look to the murderous behaviour of the Israelites towards their rival tribes (e.g. the slaughter of the Amorites) for examples of this. And yet they maintained a strict moral code within their own tribe.

That Natural selection has not also predisposed us towards murder, genocide, domination? And what the northern chimpanzees did was a great survival mechanism. They got a larger feeding ground and more females, and they flourished.

The less intelligent primates are locked into their tribalism. But the fact that most nations are signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is indicative that the human primates have moved well beyond the tribalism of an earlier era.

Natural selection has predisposed us to attempt the restraint of individual selfishness and violence in order to build more cooperative groups. This is the origin of the rules of behaviour we call morality. The mere fact we recognize selfish/violent behaviour as bad and the mere fact that communal living has been a part of human history from the very beginning is testament to our evolved instincts for cooperative living.

For social species such as us the benefits of being part of an altruistic group greatly outweighs the benefits of individualism.

You can claim this but it is irrational. Is it not the laws of nature that determine what our instincts and behaviors are? If it is not the laws of nature that determine these then what is it? What determined the northern chimpanzees to slaughter the southern males?

[seer]

Of course it was. The genetic predisposition for altruism and reciprocity etc. are tribal qualities. The social order maintained within a tribe does not necessarily extend towards rival tribes. Homo sapiens were the same at one time. One only has to look to the murderous behaviour of the Israelites towards their rival tribes (e.g. the slaughter of the Amorites) for examples of this. And yet they maintained a strict moral code within their own tribe.

But you agree, like with the northern chimpanzees, we are also genetically predisposed to violence and selfishness.

The less intelligent primates are locked into their tribalism. But the fact that most nations are signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is indicative that the human primates have moved well beyond the tribalism of an earlier era.

So are the Jihadists sweeping through central Iraq right genetically different than you? I guess they did not get the Human Rights memo. And who has moved beyond tribalism? We just exchanged tribalism for nationalism.

And who cares who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, many of the signatories did follow through. It is worthless paper.

Natural selection has predisposed us to attempt the restraint of individual selfishness and violence in order to build more cooperative groups. This is the origin of the rules of behaviour we call morality. The mere fact we recognize selfish/violent behaviour as bad and the mere fact that communal living has been a part of human history from the very beginning is testament to our evolved instincts for cooperative living.

And natural selection has also predisposed us to slaughter our fellow man and take their territory and resources. Like what the Europeans did in North America. And you agree that there is nothing wrong with that as long as it helps the group to survive and flourish. As it did with the Europeans. Just evolution in motion.


You did not answer the question; Is it not the laws of nature that determine what our instincts and behaviors are? If it is not the laws of nature that determine these then what is it? What determined the northern chimpanzees to slaughter the southern males?