Originally posted by Mountain Man
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell - if the god of Christianity knows that "mind" precedes "brain" and is independent of it - and if the "self" is seated in "mind" - and if Sparko is right that no one can "earn" god's approval, and "faith" is all that is needed - I guess I'm not seeing a problem. What would this god's objection be?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAs Charles Babbage famously said, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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I have trouble believing that your question is asked with charity and a genuine desire to understand. The proverb "Do not cast pearls before swine" seems apropos.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThat only demonstrates that there appears to be a link between the mind and the brain. It doesn't tell us what that link is. Is the brain the source of the mind, or merely the conduit? Science can't answer that question.
You're begging the question based on unstated metaphysical assumptions.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI have trouble believing that your question is asked with charity and a genuine desire to understand.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe proverb "Do not cast pearls before swine" seems apropos.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-24-2019, 08:14 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThat's yet to be demonstrated.No, it doesn't. You can't even get the most basic facts about the hypostatic union correct and you're delusional enough to think that you can show that the concept involves a logical contradiction?
Two different natures in one hypostasis or individual existence is not the same thing as one entity simultaneously being two different entities.If we're going to use an analogy (without stretching it too far) it's probably closer to the dual-nature of light.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's demonstrably true that brain trauma or dementia can severly impact behaviour. How much the mind itself is affected remains somewhat of a mystery.No, the obvious corollary is that you're desperate for the existence of the mind to be dependent upon the existence of the brain, so you're willing to stretch the data to say something it doesn't.
"Anecdotal accounts of NDE's or religious mythology" is already far more than what you have for your position.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain - we have no "proof" - we have a great deal of evidence. Indeed - a very compelling piece of evidence, for me, is the one I cited: vast experience of brain with no mind - and no experience of mind with no brain.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou do know that I was once "predisposed" to Christian beliefs, right? I always find this rejoinder a little amusing, given that I moved away from Christianity on the basis of the evidence, not because I was "predisposed to the beliefs."
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOn that we will have to disagree. I can think of no rational basis for living your life in such a way as to protect your brain if the very seat of your self - your mind - does not depend upon it.
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We're several pages in already (18 pages on my browser) and you've yet been able to demonstrate that there's a logical contradiction involved in the concept. All you've been able to demonstrate so far is that you're unable to correctly characterize the doctrine.
A nature might be the "sum total of a person's identity" in some definitions of the word, but it does not carry that meaning in the context of the hypostatic union.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostFalse analogy! Light has 'properties', NOT 'natures'.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYou're projecting, the reverse is true.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostSo, feel free to argue for the existence of leprechauns and the Greek gods on this basis.
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Originally posted by Tassmoron View PostIt demonstrates that there is a material link between the mind and the brain; remove a part of the brain and neurosurgeons will tell you how the mind will be affected.
Originally posted by Tassmoron View PostNo metaphysics required or used.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI don't find that a very compelling piece of evidence at all.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAt least with regards to your belief that the mind is dependent on the brain for it's existence it doesn't seem to me like you had a very good justification at all to move towards that belief. At least not if you changed your mind based on the evidence that's currently available for that position. But perhaps you have some evidence for that belief that I haven't already encountered.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBecause even if you can exist without a body it doesn't mean it's an optimal kind of existence.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostEven if I do believe that the mind doesn't depend upon the brain for it's existence there is no reason what so ever for me to try and free myself from my bodily constraints, simply because I have no idea how much ability I will have to interact with my surroundings (physical or spiritual) when I'm just a soul/mind without a body.
I guess I'm not finding this line of argumentation all that convincing.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI cannot say I am surprised. But consider the rest of what you believe, Chrawnus. We see many instances of light sources without light, but not instance of light without a light source. Do you also not find that compelling? Perhaps it is safe to believe that light "precedes" and is "independent of" a light source? This dynamic is actually pretty compelling evidence for a lot (most?) of us. I'm not sure how you can blithely turn a blind eye to it.
I'm not "blithely turning a blind eye to it". I simply don't find it compelling.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI suspect you've encountered most of it. Based on your posts, and your comment above, I suspect you've dismissed most of it out of hand. I'd be very curious to know what evidence you've gathered that "mind precedes brain and is independent of it."
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat would seem to fly in the face of the Christian beliefs about the sinful nature of the material, and the desire for this post-corporeal experience with god that will transcend physical life.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt seems odd to think that you need a body to interact spiritually. And why is interacting physically held in such high esteem? After all, if the seat of the self is mind, the body is superfluous, is it not. Your existence on this earth is fleeting in the scale of the eternity you believe (I think?) that mind exists?
And it's not that I think I need a body to interact spiritually. It's that I have no idea what capacity I will have to interact with others when I'm a disembodied spirit, and I have no desire to find out.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI guess I'm not finding this line of argumentation all that convincing.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI mean, light is independent of the light source after it has been created. The photons will continue existing regardless of whether the light source is destroyed or not and their continued existence do not depend on the light source itself. So we do have instances of light without a light source, even if that light needs a source to begin existing.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm not "blithely turning a blind eye to it". I simply don't find it compelling.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostMy position is not that "mind precedes brain and is independent of it." My position is that God's mind precedes matter and is independent of it. There does seem to be a relationship between our minds and our brains, but nothing I've seen so far has led me to think this relationship is so tightly connected that one will cease to exist without the other.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThat sounds more like a gnostic belief than any Christian belief I've ever encountered. Are you sure you used to be a Christian? Matter being sinful and desiring a post-corporeal experience are not orthodox Christian beliefs.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostWhy would the body be superfluous? According to Christian dogma we are all going to be resurrected in physical bodies that we will live with for the rest of eternity.
So this is the FIRST response to my little "thought experiment" that actually addresses the question, instead of simply sputtering away into some kind of outrage. So thanks for that response. I withdraw my observation that the mind-without-brain clan is being inconsistent.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAnd it's not that I think I need a body to interact spiritually. It's that I have no idea what capacity I will have to interact with others when I'm a disembodied spirit, and I have no desire to find out.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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