Originally posted by JimL
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Life in Heaven.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostFor those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-27-2018, 02:37 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostA body, glorified or not, is just a body Sparko, it's not who you are, you're the person inside the body, correct. So, again, you're just making all this stuff up, but it isn't making sense.
It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.
If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.Last edited by Sparko; 11-27-2018, 08:00 AM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI don't expect you to believe me JimL, or think it makes sense. You are not a Christian. But I do expect you to accept my answer since you ASKED for it. We believe there is a fundamental difference between a sin nature and a glorified nature. I tried to explain it to you above as the sin nature being addicted to sin, like a heroin addict is physically addicted to heroin. He may try to not shoot up, but he body will eventually force him to do it. But once made clean, he can avoid the heroin if he chooses, and having experienced the horrors of being addicted to heroin, he is not likely to shoot up again. Especially if there is no heroin around to tempt him. Now you can try to force a heroin addict to get clean, but if it is not his choice and he likes the heroin, he will just go right back to it. He has to WANT to give it up and change. Even if he can't while addicted to it. His desire will allow him to kick the habit once he is made clean.
It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.
If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI don't expect you to believe me JimL, or think it makes sense. You are not a Christian. But I do expect you to accept my answer since you ASKED for it. We believe there is a fundamental difference between a sin nature and a glorified nature. I tried to explain it to you above as the sin nature being addicted to sin, like a heroin addict is physically addicted to heroin. He may try to not shoot up, but he body will eventually force him to do it. But once made clean, he can avoid the heroin if he chooses, and having experienced the horrors of being addicted to heroin, he is not likely to shoot up again. Especially if there is no heroin around to tempt him. Now you can try to force a heroin addict to get clean, but if it is not his choice and he likes the heroin, he will just go right back to it. He has to WANT to give it up and change. Even if he can't while addicted to it. His desire will allow him to kick the habit once he is made clean.
It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.
If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSorry Sparko, but you're explanation is just an untenible fabrication in my opinion. "Sin" is not some thing that we are addicted to, "sin" is simply a word we use to denote actions that we have determined to be wrong, usually because, though perhaps beneficial to ourselves, they would be detrimental to others, or to society in general. The detrimental aspect of sinning, for the sinner, is psychological in nature, not physical, so your glorified body idea, not to mention that you are just making it up, makes no sense.
I gave you the biblical explanation about sin natures and glorified bodies. And an analogy to help you understand. For you to say it is a fabrication just shows you have not read the bible.
But Jim, I am done. I see that nothing anyone says matters to you anyway.
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JimL: Explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven.
Sparko: Gives a perfectly reasonable answer based on the Christian worldview.
JimL: Did I say "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven"? My bad, what I actually meant was, "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven, assuming an atheistic worldview"
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostJimL: Explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven.
Sparko: Gives a perfectly reasonable answer based on the Christian worldview.
JimL: Did I say "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven"? My bad, what I actually meant was, "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven, assuming an atheistic worldview"
In the end, regardless of all of Sparko's contrivance, it comes down to the one thing, god has to recreate you and your environment somehow, else you would go on sinning in heaven just as you do on earth which makes the crucible idea an illogical idea.Last edited by JimL; 11-28-2018, 07:52 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNot that I mind ones own opinion on the matter, but if it doesn't make sense I'm going to point out the flaw in it, which is what I've been doing.
Originally posted by JimL View PostSorry Sparko, but you're explanation is just an untenible fabrication in my opinion. "Sin" is not some thing that we are addicted to, "sin" is simply a word we use to denote actions that we have determined to be wrong, usually because, though perhaps beneficial to ourselves, they would be detrimental to others, or to society in general. The detrimental aspect of sinning, for the sinner, is psychological in nature, not physical, so your glorified body idea, not to mention that you are just making it up, makes no sense.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostNo, what you've been doing is rejecting answers you've been given using objections that are only viable if you're already presupposing that atheism is the correct worldview, as evidenced by this post of yours which I quote below:
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, actually I asked for a logical answer to the question, one that makes sense, perhaps a logical one actually specified biblically, not ones own illogical fabrication. Not that I mind ones own opinion on the matter, but if it doesn't make sense I'm going to point out the flaw in it, which is what I've been doing. Problem is, christians are all over the map on the issue and my suspician is that the reason for that is because, really, it makes no sense, and no matter how hard they work at it, they can't really make it make sense.
In the end, regardless of all of Sparko's contrivance, it comes down to the one thing, god has to recreate you and your environment somehow, else you would go on sinning in heaven just as you do on earth which makes the crucible idea an illogical idea.
For those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?
1. To show that there are people like you out there who ask questions not to get answers, but to have something to argue against and will reject no matter what is said.
2. That there are actually good answers to these questions even if the asker doesn't care.
3. Now you have one less excuse to use when you are confronted by God on why you chose to disbelieve.
You aren't fooling anyone JimL. Except yourself.
I actually still pray for you and your soul JimL. That you will wake up one day. I was where you are now once. You just have to stop fighting and accept the truth.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe problem is that your answers presuppose that your beliefs are the correct worldview even though they are not substantiated by credible evidence.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostNo, what you've been doing is rejecting answers you've been given using objections that are only viable if you're already presupposing that atheism is the correct worldview, as evidenced by this post of yours which I quote below:
It's like asking "What do Christians think God is like?" and then no matter what they say, he says "That is illogical! God doesn't exist so he can't be like that!"
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