Red Letter Christianity

[carpedm9587]

As I said, I'm very close to believing a Christian can't be a good POTUS. I don't want a National Pastor. I want a POTUS who will behave in a way that is good for the country, and frankly, I think the necessary behavior would generally be considered "unchristlike."

An interesting position to take. You realize that you are essentially saying Christianity is a failed model for leadership. Do you REALLY believe that?

[carpedm9587]

I think what gets lost in this is the fact that Jesus was pretty blunt and "not so kind" to those who were simply out to attack him - in His case - the scribes, pharisees, etc....

If I encounter somebody who's even REMOTELY interested in the Gospel, I'm happy to entertain them, and even put up with quite a bit of crap.

When it's internet s, however, who have absolutely no interest in having a discussion, but are simply here to attack -- I don't have a whole lot of patience for that.

It is not lost, CP. What I am pointing out is that the current hero of many in the evangelical movement is not even remotely behaving as Jesus of Nazareth apparently would. He does not use name calling to underscore hypocrisy and lies or just for those out to attack him, he uses it to gain political advantage and to "get even." I do not know of a single instance in which Jesus advocating lying. Trump advocates for it and does it continually.

As a former Christian AND a former evangelical, I long held a certain amount of respect for both. The widespread embracing of Trump, and refusal to call him out on his worst offenses, has significantly eroded that respect. I'm sure that won't keep anyone on this site awake for more than a few femtoseconds, but I find it a sad turn of affairs.

[seer]

[One Bad Pig]

As I said, I'm very close to believing a Christian can't be a good POTUS. I don't want a National Pastor. I want a POTUS who will behave in a way that is good for the country, and frankly, I think the necessary behavior would generally be considered "unchristlike."

This stems from a misunderstanding of what "Christlike" entails, not the incompatibility of Christianity and national leadership.

[One Bad Pig]

It is not lost, CP. What I am pointing out is that the current hero of many in the evangelical movement is not even remotely behaving as Jesus of Nazareth apparently would. He does not use name calling to underscore hypocrisy and lies or just for those out to attack him, he uses it to gain political advantage and to "get even." I do not know of a single instance in which Jesus advocating lying. Trump advocates for it and does it continually.

As a former Christian AND a former evangelical, I long held a certain amount of respect for both. The widespread embracing of Trump, and refusal to call him out on his worst offenses, has significantly eroded that respect. I'm sure that won't keep anyone on this site awake for more than a few femtoseconds, but I find it a sad turn of affairs.

It would help if you had any ability to fairly represent either evangelicals or Trump. That is a major reason why your stridency is eliciting mostly yawns.

[rogue06]

And it wasn't just words if his turning over the tables and chasing the money-lenders from the Temple with a scourge is any indication.

[carpedm9587]

Do you see a theme here? Jesus is documented as truly despising hypocrisy - the people who speak out of both sides of their mouth - and people who take advantage of others. He is recorded as speaking against deceit and dishonesty.

Now please show me where Jesus uttered the words, "Prattling Pilate" and "Horrible Herrod" and all of the rest of the childish taunts. Show me where Jesus lifted one finger to "get even" with anyone he thought had personally done him wrong. Show me a single lie that Jesus of Nazareth told to get his followers to follow him. Show me where Jesus bragged of kissing the women because he was a star, and being able to grab them by the genitals "because they let him." Show me one place where Jesus bragged to fluff up his own ego.

Each one of us should stand against injustice, hypocrisy, and deceit wherever it is manifest. But show me one place where you think Jesus of Nazareth would have greeted Mr. Trump and said, "well done, my good and faithful servant."

I suspect Trump would have been on the sharp end of Jesus' tongue - a prime example of the hypocrisy, deceit, and self-serving he so loathed.

[carpedm9587]

It would help if you had any ability to fairly represent either evangelicals or Trump. That is a major reason why your stridency is eliciting mostly yawns.

Actually - I am not feeling particularly strident. I'm sitting on my balcony in Texas enjoying a cold beer and catching up on the day. I am not expecting more than yawns. I think modern American evangelicals have been pretty clear about their position. I'm more saddened by the loss within that community than I am "strident."

Years ago - a friend of mine quipped "the moral majority is neither." I never really subscribed to that point of view...until lately.

[mossrose]

I suspect Trump would have been on the sharp end of Jesus' tongue - a prime example of the hypocrisy, deceit, and self-serving he so loathed.

Probably.

And so would you have been.

[carpedm9587]

Probably.

And so would you have been.

Wow...


I suspect not (but then again - don't we all ). Despite opinions here, I'm actually pretty honest, work hard to chase down my facts, and would prefer to believe what is true rather than what is convenient or what aligns with my existing views. I suspect Jesus and I would have gotten along pretty well - except that I would not have believed he was a god. But then again, I strongly suspect he didn't believe he was a god either, and would be dismayed to discover he had been elevated to that status.

[One Bad Pig]

I suspect Trump would have been on the sharp end of Jesus' tongue - a prime example of the hypocrisy, deceit, and self-serving he so loathed.

Jesus came to seek and save not the righteous, but sinners. Jesus had no self-righteous Pharisees in his gang, but he did have a tax collector. You're not exactly in a position to be throwing stones, here.

[carpedm9587]

Jesus came to seek and save not the righteous, but sinners. Jesus had no self-righteous Pharisees in his gang, but he did have a tax collector. You're not exactly in a position to be throwing stones, here.

Well - certainly no more than Jesus did...


Sometimes, we all need our Jiminy Cricket...

[One Bad Pig]

Actually - I am not feeling particularly strident. I'm sitting on my balcony in Texas enjoying a cold beer and catching up on the day.

Strident is perhaps not quite what I meant, but it's within reach; you have been loudly and fervently denouncing evangelicals and Trump. And, in case you somehow missed it, I'm talking about your posts in general, not at the particular point in time you happen to be responding.

[carpedm9587]

Strident is perhaps not quite what I meant, but it's within reach; you have been loudly and fervently denouncing evangelicals and Trump. And, in case you somehow missed it, I'm talking about your posts in general, not at the particular point in time you happen to be responding.

It's hard to do "loud" in text... UNLESS I DO THIS!!!

Fervently? Hmmm...don't think so. Goes with "strident." I do think Trump is an immoral prat - but he will go the way of the dodo bird eventually (hopefully in 2020). And I do not denounce ALL evangelicals - merely those who are lining up behind this man and failing to call him out on his moral failings because they like his political policies. I suspect Jesus of Nazareth would have had a great deal to say about such positions.

As for my posts in general...there is a lot of speculation about my emotional state here. You appeared to be adamant that I was misreading many who appear fairly angry to me. I guess you'll have to decide if you accept my word that you are misreading my own emotional state. I feel neither strident - nor fervent - nor loud. I'm posting what I think.

If I had to describe the feeling, it would be more "disappointment" than "anger." The evangelicals that have compromised their morality for their politics have done themselves a disservice, IMO. It is actually possible to say, "Good on you Mr. Trump for getting conservative justices on the court that will uphold our values" while simultaneously saying, "stop lying, Mr. Trump, and stop attacking women who come forward to report being sexually assaulted, and stop calling people juvenile names, and stop "getting even" for the slightest hurt. None of these things is moral or presidential or in any way Christian."

[KingsGambit]

When I posted earlier, I had in mind when Roger Olson's old blog post on whether a Christian can lead a modern nation state. I'm not sure about his contention that Jimmy Carter was the only genuine Christian in the history of the presidency and that being a Christian was why he failed (he didn't respond to my question about why he doesn't think George W. Bush was a Christian), but I think this excerpt is probably correct:

Certainly, anybody who attempted to govern as president according to Christian principles would expend their political capital very quickly and become ineffective as it would require so many politically unpopular policy changes.

I don't see how anybody could get to that stage without selfish ambition in the first place, which we know is strictly forbidden. It's no coincidence that you probably have to be a narcissist to get the office in the first place.