Originally posted by crepuscule
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism irrefutable.
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNeeds clarification. It does not make sense.
IT is possible that natural law and the nature of our physical existence is the cause of our 'mere?' existence.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSigh - prove existence. If you can't - and you can't - then it's an assumption.
Metaphysics: it's not for wimps.
Uncaused existence is the logical starting point. Existence and cause are two different things.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAs to Christians knowing God you gave a one word reply, "faith." That can mean anything from truth to error. And faith, while needed, does not create the reality.
That makes no sense at all. You still do not understand. Existence is either the state of a thing (verb) or the everywhere (noun). Natural law requires existence (noun) for it to be (existence, the verb). Existence (noun) precedes everything that exists (the verb).
Makes perfect sense. Existence may be everywhere, and Natural Law is possibly eternal and the cause of everything.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostExistence is presumed without proof of it. So many theists argue proofs for the existence of God. In such arguments existence is not what needs proof, God does. The issue becomes existence versus God. The question then is why does existence need God?
Uncaused existence is the logical starting point. Existence and cause are two different things.
You keep wanting to skip proofs but you can only do that when everyone agrees that an assumption doesn't require it. No one sane is going to concede an assumption that disproves their conclusion.
So, if you want to argue that God necessarily exists with people other than Christians, you have got to deal with proving the underlying assumptions - which in turn would prove God's existence, negating your 'don't need proof' thesis in its entirety.
Until you are willing to at least try to understand the opposition POV, you are hopelessly stuck with an argument that doesn't do what you think it does.
And this is getting a bit much - I'm bowing out. No one should have to fight five fronts at once."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrue, but not meaningful beyond what one believes.
I understand very well as always in the past you are simply arguing fro the assumption of what you believe to be true. Begging the Question big time.
Makes perfect sense. Existence may be everywhere, and Natural Law is possibly eternal and the cause of everything.
I think you're correct, he probably is begging the question but thus far, he hasn't stated anything that outright proves he's arguing from the assumption of the truth of the conclusion, even though he is arguing in a circle.
Okay, really leaving now...."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat effect is infinite without beginning and not a change? No such thing. Effects by meaning have a cause. All causes are temporal and finite as to bring about their effects, and so are temporal and finite. Explain how it can be any other way?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMakes perfect sense. Existence may be everywhere, and Natural Law is possibly eternal and the cause of everything.
Natural law meaning what? To have meaning it has to exist. Natural law, what ever it my entail, is contingent on it existing. Therefore existence, uncaused existence precedes natural law. Uncaused existence is the starting point for there to be any natural law.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostA presumption is just an assumption defined by when it occurs. Translation YES, it's an ASSUMPTION.
You keep wanting to skip proofs but you can only do that when everyone agrees that an assumption doesn't require it. No one sane is going to concede an assumption that disproves their conclusion.
So, if you want to argue that God necessarily exists with people other than Christians, you have got to deal with proving the underlying assumptions - which in turn would prove God's existence, negating your 'don't need proof' thesis in its entirety.
Until you are willing to at least try to understand the opposition POV, you are hopelessly stuck with an argument that doesn't do what you think it does.
And this is getting a bit much - I'm bowing out. No one should have to fight five fronts at once.
A proof is to show the existence of a thing. Again, existence is what is presumed.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostNot any other way? How is it metaphysically impossible that a cause is atemporal and infinite, other than because you say it can't be?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostExplain what you mean by an atemporal infinite cause. For example, the very concept of an uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal. What is uncaused is eternal. As a cause is finite and temporal. Atemporal and temporal are two different things as well, so infinite and finite are two different things. So an atemporal infinite cause would be multiple things. Unless said cause did not cause anything finite and temporal.
Natural Law would not be a temporal 'thing.'
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou presume the existence of existence to be an assumption! Either a thing is true or it is not true. For a thing to be true it has to exist or it is not true.
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IF the presumption is true, prove it. Prove that existence has an external reality.
Which you can't - we are already PRESUMING existence.
I left off the rest because you're getting lost here. Your argument is that you don't have to prove that God exists because of uncaused cause - but that argument rests on the presumption of existence, which cannot be proven. If I were still an atheist, this wouldn't even slow me down since I'd likely accept a multiverse (gah) view - which makes pink unicorns and non-existent existence possible thereby avoiding the whole thing.
But if I were taking it seriously, then I'd simply argue that not knowing cause isn't the same thing as uncaused - in other words, I'd use the 'magic' of physics (tell me quantum doesn't qualify ) to argue that there must be a cause we just don't know of yet (multiverses help here, too - icky though they be).
That all translates to your argument remains uncompelling for the atheist - and circular to the theist."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostExplain what you mean by an atemporal infinite cause. For example, the very concept of an uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal. What is uncaused is eternal. As a cause is finite and temporal. Atemporal and temporal are two different things as well, so infinite and finite are two different things. So an atemporal infinite cause would be multiple things. Unless said cause did not cause anything finite and temporal.
This looks like crap to me - I've not seen it before but it looks like a simple dodge. I'll have to read up before making up my mind about it, though."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostSeriously? Are there any other Christians -or indeed anyone- who believe(s) that a cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostHere Bible is talking about what caused the universe - that cannot be finite and temporal because that would make the cause part of the effect. An uncaused cause must be infinite and eternal.
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