The Atheist Theist Tension

[Sparko]

Yes the Federal Holy-Day is Christ's Mass...

They cant even mention it without talking about Jesus. And he is worried about some printed words on money in a font so small as to be nearly invisible.

[carpedm9587]

What do you mean agree to disagree? The National Archives and the Library of Congress both call the DoI a founding document, it is not a matter of your opinion.

You are hung up on the word "founding." So I'll change it to "binding" and perhaps we can avoid the conflict. The DoE is a statement of intent written by a small group of men. The Constitution is the document that had to be ratified by the new states, and is the defining document of our country. The DoE's role is not ongoing. The Constitution's is.

And it is the first of the founding documents. And no other document references the source of human rights, the DoI does and sets that out clearly. And those rights come from God... Like I said you can not divorce the founding of this nation from religion, to quote John Adams:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity."

https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

When you quote a Christian - you get claims about Christianity. The FFs included men of varying beliefs (though many were indeed Christian). They also, explicitly, omitted any reference to gods or religions from the governing/binding document of our nation.

[carpedm9587]

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

Nope. The holiday has many names. I tend to say "happy holidays" myself. I tend to refer to it as the Yuletide season. I have to admit that old habits die hard, so "Christmas" escapes my lips now and then. But I'm getting better

You guys sure do like to toss "hypocrite" around...

[Sparko]

Nope. The holiday has many names. I tend to say "happy holidays" myself. I tend to refer to it as the Yuletide season. I have to admit that old habits die hard, so "Christmas" escapes my lips now and then. But I'm getting better

You guys sure do like to toss "hypocrite" around...

Because there seems to be quite a few of them here.

And no I would not stop spending money if it said "in God we don't trust" on it nor if they took the current motto off of it. I don't think the USA has actually trusted in God as a government in decades. Otherwise all this nonsense about removing any display of religion would not be an issue.

[rogue06]

Christmas also incorporates aspects of older festivities such as Saturnalia and the winter solstice. It is unclear how much of Christmas was a Xtian co-option of those older holidays vs how much is original to Xtianity.

While it became popular back in the 19th cent and the first quarter of the 20th to assume that Christianity borrowed heavily from other religions, in more recent times researchers began discovering more and more often that the borrowing was actually going the other way.

[rogue06]

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

Yes the Federal Holy-Day is Christ's Mass...

In order to be consistent carpe oughta shutter himself in his home on December 25th although mumbling and grumbling darkly to himself during that time is entirely optional.

[stfoskey15]

And here's an idea: why don't you (and other atheists) get over having "in God we trust" on your money and let other people who believe in God and trust in Him enjoy their cash without trying to make the whole country change to your way of thinking.

I mean it would really just be changing things back to how they were before the 1950s.

[seer]

You are hung up on the word "founding." So I'll change it to "binding" and perhaps we can avoid the conflict. The DoE is a statement of intent written by a small group of men. The Constitution is the document that had to be ratified by the new states, and is the defining document of our country. The DoE's role is not ongoing. The Constitution's is.

I'm not hung up on the word - it is what the document is. What is binding or not has nothing to do with the fact that the Founders grounded human rights in God. So God has central role in our Founding, and clearly sets out where they thought rights came from.

When you quote a Christian - you get claims about Christianity. The FFs included men of varying beliefs (though many were indeed Christian). They also, explicitly, omitted any reference to gods or religions from the governing/binding document of our nation.

Yet these same men had national days of thanksgiving that referenced not only God but Christ, they instituted church taxes in many states, used federal monies to print and distribute bibles, supported Christian evangelization, use biblical moral law in their state legal codes, imposed Christian morality on the military, instituted the Christian Chaplain service, morning prayer was a staple in the public classroom, as was bible reading, etc, etc, etc... Get over yourself Carp...

[seer]

In order to be consistent carpe oughta shutter himself in his home on December 25th although mumbling and grumbling darkly to himself during that time is entirely optional.

I think he does that already...

[rogue06]

This was interesting to me, so I did a bit of digging. It is indeed one of two common explanations of the origins of Christmas. As best I can tell, we're all apparently guessing. We know a bit about how/when various events occurred related to the holy/holiday. Given this information, I'm going to abandon the claim that Christmas was an appropriation of the winter solstice and replace it with "we don't know."

I do know that we now have a day that has holy meaning to Christians, and holiday meaning to most people. We could, you know, just share the day...

It also dates back to at least the end of the second century A.D. and likely earlier given how matter-of-factly it was discussed. While I disagree with the reasoning employed the fact is that it was how the date was arrived at though for the most part it was not considered very important until later (Christians were far more concerned with his death than his birth).

I should note that Britannica errs when they say Sextus Julius Africanus was the first to mention December 25th as Christ's birthday since both Hippolytus of Rome and Irenaeus both mentioned it a couple decades earlier. Further, the myth that it was done in order to usurp the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti -- "day of the birth of the unconquered sun") is demonstrable hogwash.

That festival was only moved to December 25th in either 274 or 275 (over a half century after Sextus Julius Africanus' mention) by a Roman Emperor, Aurelian, who was not exactly tolerant of Christianity^[1]. Until that time the festival was celebrated on various days, as I previously noted, including "August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th."

So if anything a case can be made that the pagans tried to usurp Christmas by deciding to celebrate a popular festival on the same day.









1. While at the very beginning of his reign he exhibited a good deal of tolerance that quickly changed

Source: Aurelian

As soon as he was at liberty to carry out his schemes for internal reform Aurelian revived the polity of his predecessor Valerian, threatened to rescind the Edict of Gallienus, and commenced a systematic persecution of the followers of Christ. The exact date of the inauguration of this policy is not known. It is summer of 275 and despatched to the governors of the provinces, but Aurelian was slain before he could put it into execution.



Source

© Copyright Original Source

[rogue06]

I mean it would really just be changing things back to how they were before the 1950s.

Except for the fact that "In God We Trust" was on our money many decades before that.

[shunyadragon]

The selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday

It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25^[1] and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.

This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD, meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around^[2].

1. Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel by Hippolytus of Rome. See also Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses.

2. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.

Disagree, the Pagans all across Europe had the winter solstice as their holiday before Christianity, and it was most definitely co-opted by Rome. Constantine a pagan Roman Emperor with "Sol Invictus" on his coins selected the date for the celebration of the birthday of Jesus Christ. Even the declaration of Aurelian in 225 was concerning pagan celebrations widely celebrated by pagans as the winter solstice. The Christians began celebrating the Dec 25 ~200 AD, but with no consensus as to the actual birth date of Jesus Christ, claims prior to this are vague and undocumented. It is well documented that the Winter solstice as a pagan holiday goes back much older all across Europe for hundreds of years before Christianity.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/wintersolstice.shtml

The Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice (also known as Yule) is one of the oldest winter celebrations in the world.

Ancient people were hunters and spent most of their time outdoors. The seasons and weather played a very important part in their lives. Because of this many ancient people had a great reverence for, and even worshipped the sun. The Norsemen of Northern Europe saw the sun as a wheel that changed the seasons. It was from the word for this wheel, houl, that the word yule is thought to have come. At mid-winter the Norsemen lit bonfires, told stories and drank sweet ale.

The ancient Romans also held a festival to celebrate the rebirth of the year. Saturnalia ran for seven days from the 17th of December. It was a time when the ordinary rules were turned upside down. Men dressed as women and masters dressed as servants. The festival also involved decorating houses with greenery, lighting candles, holding processions and giving presents.

The Winter Solstice falls on the shortest day of the year (21st December) and was celebrated in Britain long before the arrival of Christianity. The Druids (Celtic priests) would cut the mistletoe that grew on the oak tree and give it as a blessing. Oaks were seen as sacred and the winter fruit of the mistletoe was a symbol of life in the dark winter months.

It was also the Druids who began the tradition of the yule log. The Celts thought that the sun stood still for twelve days in the middle of winter and during this time a log was lit to conquer the darkness, banish evil spirits and bring luck for the coming year.

Many of these customs are still followed today. They have been incorporated into the Christian and secular celebrations of Christmas.

© Copyright Original Source

[mossrose]

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

That's exactly what I've been trying to get at.

[Cow Poke]

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

That's why so many people are trying so hard to get "Christmas Party" changed to "Holiday Party".

My wife's boss told her a few years ago to stop putting "Christmas" on the Christmas Cards they send out - she's in charge of getting that done.
He wanted "Happy Holidays"?

My wife is a pistol - she asked him,

Q) OK, what Holiday is it we're celebrating?
A) He begrudgingly replied "Christmas".
Q) And what kind of songs do we sing at the party?
A) Mumbling - "Christmas"
Q) And what do we call the presents we give?
A) Cold stare
Q) And that tree, what kind of tree do we put the presents under?
A) Slow burn....

She just smiled, and then he barked "OK, send out the %$#@#! Christmas Cards!!!!

[carpedm9587]

Because there seems to be quite a few of them here.

And no I would not stop spending money if it said "in God we don't trust" on it nor if they took the current motto off of it. I don't think the USA has actually trusted in God as a government in decades. Otherwise all this nonsense about removing any display of religion would not be an issue.

There is no doubt our society is becoming more secular. I see that as a good thing. I'm going to guess we're not going to agree on that.