Originally posted by JimL
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-18-2018, 06:58 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHow do you know that?
Perhaps the material Cosmos, like your god, just sat there for an eternity causing nothing when all of a sudden it bore a material world.
There had to be a first cause, therefore god did it.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNo, such a universe would be an uncaused existence, just like you claim god to be. Except that for the former there is theoretical evidence supporting the concept but for the latter there is only Bronze Age theology.
Your argument is based upon a conditional assertion, i.e. IF there is an uncaused existence, which you assume to be the case, and then it must be god.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn order to even have some kind of eternal substance from which everything else came, you would have to have an uncaused existence in any case. Why wouldn't that be so?
Again such a perhaps would still need an uncaused existence in which that perhaps to take place.
Why must there be a first cause? Again there would still need to be an uncaused existence in order for there to be a first uncaused cause.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere has to be an uncaused existence in any case. How would you not have an uncaused existence?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat would be so, obviously. No need to define that substance as something different than that which it is the cause. You are the same substance as that of your mother.
Correct, the uncaused existence being the material substance out of which its differing forms are caused.
That's your argument, not mine. If the material substance, or the greater Cosmos, is eternal, then it isn't caused, ergo no first cause.Last edited by 37818; 08-19-2018, 10:57 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIf the natural material universe(s) is infinite and eternal, as is believed by many cosmologists, then it isn't caused.
It is no different in principle from the eternal god that you postulate. There are mathematical models for the former but no evidence for the latter.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere has to be an uncaused existence in any case. How would you not have an uncaused existence?
Why wouldn't there be an uncaused existence? And why does that necessitate that that be God? What is the argument as to why?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNo. You are talking non sense. How is space and matter the same substance? Humans are flesh. Living flesh is yet something else though it be within space and made up of matter. Existence and cause are two things even as you suppose the same subtance.
But your concept of one universal substance does not make the distinctions between existence and causation. In order for there to be substance it has to exist. Uncaused existence is a starting point for anything.
Again, existence and cause are different. It is cause that has to have existence. Uncaused existence needs no cause!
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSame way that you would have an uncaused deity, namely that it just "is".
Because, according to you 'god did it'...i.e. an 'Argument from Ignorance'.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by JimL View PostFirst off, space is material, it bends and warps due to the material mass moving within it. And cause is not a thing so I can't understand what you're trying to say.
Yeah, so, the universe, or what I call the greater Cosmos, is uncaused and that which is born of it is a result of the formers causal nature. What's the problem?
True, an eternal universe needs no cause, because it's eternal. What's your point? Cause and effect is the nature of eternal existence and the same would need be applied in describing a creator god.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostUncaused existence has no cause. Caused existence is contingent.
That may be true, but that is not my argument. My argument is uncaused existence has no cause and is the only thing that is self existent. So unless God is uncaused existence, there is no God. God's identity is being the uncaused existence which is self existent. The only argument you can have is that God is not God.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Yeah, so, the universe, or what I call the greater Cosmos, is uncaused and that which is born of it is a result of the formers causal nature. What's the problem?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostFinite and temporal.
You still fail to make a distinction between uncaused existence and things contingent.
What is eternal is uncaused existence. Which would have to be part of such a universe in order for it to be eternal.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt is just as possible to claim that natural law and material existence are uncaused existence and eternal as it is to claim the existence of an uncaused, eternally existing god.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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