As soon as you cite sites that are not rabidly anti-Christian like "Jews for Judiasm" and "Answering Christianity.
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Nobody Dies for a Lie
Collapse
X
-
"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
-
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThese Isaiah passages had NEVER, during the millennia of their existence, been interpreted by the Jews as predicting the future Messiah. And they still aren't. It was only after the event, when strict monotheist Jews wanted to say Jesus was God too, that the followers of Jesus took them to refer to Jesus."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostAs the saying goes..."Hind sight is 20/20".
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBless your heart.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYes, they are Jewish Scriptures, but Christian believe we were grafted into the Nation of Israel by Jesus, thereby making them ours (Christians) as well.
Romans 11:17 - But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
And we are considered adopted sons, which as you know means Full kinship in the family.
Ephesians 1:5 English Standard Version (ESV)...In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
JewsForJesus.org, messainicapologetics.net, and oneforisrael.org all disagree with this exegesis from your source. Obviously the Jews can't see Jesus in this passage as they would then have to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Also obvious is that your sources are Jewish and have a pro-Jewish and an anti-Christian bias and mine are ALSO Jewish but have a pro-Christian bias and are also pro-Jewish. The reason God Almighty is not used here IMO is that Jesus isn't God Almighty, that's the Fathers role. He is however Mighty God. The Mighty Arm of God...
From https://jewsforjesus.org/publication...-son-is-given/ :
These four names are all used elsewhere in the Book of Isaiah and in each case they are used of God, never of man.
As you can see, Isaiah never uses these Hebraic Words of God for men.
from messianicapologetics.net:
http://messianicapologetics.net/archives/18715
From oneforisrael.org :
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-b...day-of-midian/
The Day of Midian, it turns out, has everything to do with the coming and birth of Yeshua!
None of which earns him the right to be called names of God and/or divine.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostJews or Jesus et al are not Jewish sources.
Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do
Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.
They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:
Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.
They claim to be Jewish:
https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are
Burden of proof is on you!
ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.Last edited by Littlejoe; 05-29-2018, 08:35 AM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post<snip>
If you attempt to apply the concepts we know inside this universe to the universe itself (or anything "before" or "outside" the universe, if those terms even mean anything), you make an assumption you cannot substantiate. The best we can say is "we don't know." We do not know if the entire concept of causation is simply about how this universe functions, or if it is a concept that transcends the universe.
Our universe is in evidence.
Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostAnything "beyond" our known and testable or observable universe is effectively "beyond" nature or may even be deemed "supernatural."
Our universe is in evidence.
Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWithin this universe...this principle makes sense. However, we do not know if it applies to the universe itself. I have to admit I would like to think it does - but you are trying to apply a concept we know to be true inside the universe to the universe itself. As I said before, the best we can say about such things is, "we don't know.". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOK. Now I am not understanding something here. I understand uncaused existence needs beyond itself, whether anything else or not anything else.
But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post37818 - you'r entire argument about causality is based on our physical experience of causality within this universe. We have no experience of a thing that is not caused by another thing.
But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostExistence precedes anything else what ever it might be. [Uncaused] Existence. There cannot be anything else without [uncaused] existence.
...which is my point....
Your entire argument assumes that this concept is true absolutely...but it is actually based on your causal experience within this universe....The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYou're entitled to your opinion, I do not agree.
Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do
Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.
They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:
Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.
They claim to be Jewish:
https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are
Burden of proof is on you!
ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.
I simply believe in the Jewish world view of Monotheism as reflected in contemporary Judaism, which reject the Jews for Jesus movement as not really Jewish and mostly represents non-Jewish believers. I may post some Jewish understanding of these scriptures from a very old now lost web.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, Today, 09:43 AM
|
1 response
23 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 11:40 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
468 responses
2,119 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 06-05-2024, 04:09 AM | ||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-04-2024, 05:06 AM
|
254 responses
1,243 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 05-22-2024, 12:21 PM | ||
Started by whag, 01-18-2024, 01:35 PM
|
53 responses
418 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 06-11-2024, 11:01 AM |
Comment