Nobody Dies for a Lie

[Littlejoe]

As soon as you cite sites that are not rabidly anti-Christian like "Jews for Judiasm" and "Answering Christianity.

[Littlejoe]

These Isaiah passages had NEVER, during the millennia of their existence, been interpreted by the Jews as predicting the future Messiah. And they still aren't. It was only after the event, when strict monotheist Jews wanted to say Jesus was God too, that the followers of Jesus took them to refer to Jesus.

As the saying goes..."Hind sight is 20/20".

[Tassman]

As the saying goes..."Hind sight is 20/20".

Except that it's not 20/20 in this instance. E.g. the Isaiah passage refers to a "Mighty God" not "the Almighty God", which is the term used exclusively for the one true God. And there are no prophecies of the key events in the life of the Christian Messiah, such as the virgin birth, the Crucifixion and resurrection. And their is no prediction of Jesus the Messiah rising on the third day...surely a key aspect of Jesus' miraculous life and death. As for "and the government shall be upon his shoulders" it wasn't, at least not yet.

Bless your heart.

Yet another withering argument from the preacher. LOL

[shunyadragon]

Yes, they are Jewish Scriptures, but Christian believe we were grafted into the Nation of Israel by Jesus, thereby making them ours (Christians) as well.

Romans 11:17 - But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

And we are considered adopted sons, which as you know means Full kinship in the family.

Ephesians 1:5 English Standard Version (ESV)...In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

JewsForJesus.org, messainicapologetics.net, and oneforisrael.org all disagree with this exegesis from your source. Obviously the Jews can't see Jesus in this passage as they would then have to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Also obvious is that your sources are Jewish and have a pro-Jewish and an anti-Christian bias and mine are ALSO Jewish but have a pro-Christian bias and are also pro-Jewish. The reason God Almighty is not used here IMO is that Jesus isn't God Almighty, that's the Fathers role. He is however Mighty God. The Mighty Arm of God...


From https://jewsforjesus.org/publication...-son-is-given/ :

These four names are all used elsewhere in the Book of Isaiah and in each case they are used of God, never of man.

As you can see, Isaiah never uses these Hebraic Words of God for men.


from messianicapologetics.net:
http://messianicapologetics.net/archives/18715





From oneforisrael.org :
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-b...day-of-midian/

The Day of Midian, it turns out, has everything to do with the coming and birth of Yeshua!

None of which earns him the right to be called names of God and/or divine.

Jews or Jesus et al are not Jewish sources.

[Littlejoe]

Jews or Jesus et al are not Jewish sources.

You're entitled to your opinion, I do not agree.

Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do

Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.

They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:

Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.

They claim to be Jewish:


https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are

Burden of proof is on you!

ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.

[37818]

<snip>

If you attempt to apply the concepts we know inside this universe to the universe itself (or anything "before" or "outside" the universe, if those terms even mean anything), you make an assumption you cannot substantiate. The best we can say is "we don't know." We do not know if the entire concept of causation is simply about how this universe functions, or if it is a concept that transcends the universe.

Anything "beyond" our known and testable or observable universe is effectively "beyond" nature or may even be deemed "supernatural."

Our universe is in evidence.

Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.

[carpedm9587]

Anything "beyond" our known and testable or observable universe is effectively "beyond" nature or may even be deemed "supernatural."

Our universe is in evidence.

Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.

Within this universe...this principle makes sense. However, we do not know if it applies to the universe itself. I have to admit I would like to think it does - but you are trying to apply a concept we know to be true inside the universe to the universe itself. As I said before, the best we can say about such things is, "we don't know."

[37818]

Within this universe...this principle makes sense. However, we do not know if it applies to the universe itself. I have to admit I would like to think it does - but you are trying to apply a concept we know to be true inside the universe to the universe itself. As I said before, the best we can say about such things is, "we don't know."

OK. Now I am not understanding something here. I understand uncaused existence needs not anything beyond itself.

[carpedm9587]

OK. Now I am not understanding something here. I understand uncaused existence needs beyond itself, whether anything else or not anything else.

37818 - you'r entire argument about causality is based on our physical experience of causality within this universe. We have no experience of a thing that is not caused by another thing.

But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.

[37818]

37818 - you'r entire argument about causality is based on our physical experience of causality within this universe. We have no experience of a thing that is not caused by another thing.

But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.

Existence precedes anything else what ever it might be. [Uncaused] Existence. There cannot be anything else without [uncaused] existence.

[carpedm9587]

Existence precedes anything else what ever it might be. [Uncaused] Existence. There cannot be anything else without [uncaused] existence.

Based on your experience within this universe.....

...which is my point....

Your entire argument assumes that this concept is true absolutely...but it is actually based on your causal experience within this universe....

[shunyadragon]

You're entitled to your opinion, I do not agree.

Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do

Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.

They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:

Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.

They claim to be Jewish:


https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are

Burden of proof is on you!

ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.

No burden of proof here would help for either view. Jews for Jesus, and other sites referenced simply reflect the Christian belief concerning the Trinity and Christian beliefs concerning the Old Testament.

I simply believe in the Jewish world view of Monotheism as reflected in contemporary Judaism, which reject the Jews for Jesus movement as not really Jewish and mostly represents non-Jewish believers. I may post some Jewish understanding of these scriptures from a very old now lost web.

[shunyadragon]

[Cow Poke]

Shuny - this looks familiar - is this your original work?

[Tassman]

Shuny - this looks familiar - is this your original work?

Surely it's the argument that matters.