Originally posted by Roy
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostCerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by brain doesn't go past the firstfloor View PostFor comparison: Was Jesus a suicide or was he murdered by his dad?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSo you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThank you for proving mine.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostWe can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"
Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.
The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.
With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
But then you buy into the self-serving lie that people are becoming progressively smarter* and puff up your own questionable credentials, so your conclusions are neither surprising nor noteworthy.
* For one thing, a rise in IQ test scores does not prove a rise in intelligence, and it has long been debated whether or not intelligence can even be meaningfully or objectively measured. And while modern humans might perform better in some cognitive tests compared to people in the past, they perform worse in others. To put it another way, I seriously question your claim to be smarter than some of history's most brilliant theists like Aristotle, Pascal, Newton, etc.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThank you for proving mine."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIf you think the best arguments for theism can be substantively refuted in under 20-seconds then you're clearly not someone worth taking seriously. I suspect what you really mean is that there's no argument for theism that can't be flippantly dismissed within 20-seconds, but so what?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWe can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"
Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.
The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.
Why should I give any credence to the uneducated (and on the best arguments for Christian theism, the bulk of secular academics and scientists are uneducated) beliefs of 'experts' in unrelated fields? Might as well conduct a survey of botanists, primary school teachers, lawyers and firemen to decide if any of the theories of Quantum Physics are worth the paper they're written on.
Few academics in secular disciplines at secular institutions believe in Christianity?
Originally posted by StarlightWith regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
Originally posted by StarlightAll the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.
None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.
Of course you can't do that, and you lack the wisdom and smarts to just say you were speaking in a big generalisation that no-one could possibly support. But you didn't, and you won't. Q.E.D. You aren't that smart or wise....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Eh, Starlight's pretty smart. His problem is that his arguments in the area of politics and religion tend to depend much more on emotion than reason, because he's emotionally invested in his beliefs in those areas. He was a Christian until he seems to have discovered, to his shock, that there was a basic conflict between his religion and his lifestyle. His lifestyle turned out to be more important to him.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Roy View PostCerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
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