Originally posted by Starlight
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOkay then."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostThere are lots of weird apologetics arguments about the early believers in Christianity and the spread of Christianity. Generally I don't find such arguments to be worth the pixels they are written on. The fact is there have been lots of religious fanatics throughout history who have believed all sorts of weird and crazy things. Their fervent belief doesn't make their beliefs true.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostCarpedm and I both have backgrounds that mean we've come across many and various versions of these type of arguments before. Given we've seen so many terrible arguments of this form, I am strongly inclined to doubt there is a super-amazingly-great version of the argument out there someone that we haven't seen. However, if you have a particular version of the argument that you endorse and which you think is particularly good then by all means present it."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThat doesn't change how audacious it is to dismiss probably the centerpiece argument for Christian theism as stupid
None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.
That's why I'm an atheist."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAll the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.
None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.
That's why I'm an atheist."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAll the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.
None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.
That's why I'm an atheist.
uh... Oh- Kaaay...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostBecause you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers
Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.
Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.
The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.
Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIt takes more than one sentence to establish that
None of the arguments for Christian theism are aimed at determining what reality is. They are all, without exception, from Thomas to Craig, intended to bolster existing beliefs. As such they almost always make unwarranted assumptions that are based in the arguers faith, but easy to spot if (unlike those who propagate these apologetics) one does not share those assumptions. They are also usually blatantly obvious if the argument is put in formal symbolic logic, which is probably why apologists never do that.
30+ years of examining such arguments does indeed result in the conclusion that they are all worthless, that there are no more arguments that remain unseen, an ability to dissect such arguments in less time than it takes to type a reply and a certainty that the person presenting them does not care whether or not they are flawed since that is not the basis for their belief and there are many more anyway.Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018, 03:36 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostA 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI would prefer 'better educated,' 'wider read' and 'having internet access' to 'smarter'.
"If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI was also thinking that there's the famous quote/proverb:
"If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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You appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam.Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018, 07:11 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYou appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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