Originally posted by Sparko
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd they who were closest to him didn't believe until supposedly seeing it with their own eyes, but the rest of us are just supposed to believe them.
We do the same exact thing daily when we chose what accounts we accept or reject - not as rigorously as a court of law or a science lab, but the same precise thing.
Truth is, I've never seen you mount a decent argument - I've seen you discuss honestly at times but you also have a very bad habit of ridiculing what you don't want to address. Like what you did here - it's not only poorly considered, it's deliberately insulting - which you knew. You don't respond well when Christians do this to you, why exactly are you expecting a better result? And if you aren't, then what exactly is you purpose?
For the record, you aren't the only one that has this kind of problem - I have my own share of defense mechanisms. Yes, that's what i think you're doing here - you aren't stupid so you don't expect any positive result from ridicule and you know it serves no valid purpose. It's defensive. That doesn't necessarily mean a nerve was hit - just that you're erecting rather large walls or something got a bit too close somewhere."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'm not sure what gave you the idea I'm frustrated.
This is a passtime, Teal. If I was frustrated, I'd do something else on my breaks. You have expressed a good deal of frustration (head pounding emoji's, other comments), so I'm merely suggesting you should consider chatting with someone else. If you respond to one of my most or address me, I will most likely respond. Unless I am wrong, my style of response appears to frustrate you.
You might wanna reconsider calling negligence 'style', however."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThere are enough nearly-identical passages to show that the later gospels were not independent accounts, but were partly copied. It is an issue when the omission is in the earliest copies, and the later copies have an ending similar enough to that of the later gospels to have been based on them. Not really - if it were already a verbal account then why wasn't it in Mark? This isn't just eyewitness testimony taken down decades later, it's eyewitness testimony that has been changed by some-one else afterwards. Unfortunately for your apologetics, you have it exactly backwards - it is Luke, who you say is addressing gentiles, that omits the details you claim Jews would get instantly, and Matthew that explicitly specifies the suicide that any Jew would understand without being told. So your explanation wouldn't stand up in court.Exactly. When Matthew uses the exact same words as Mark, something is not right. Yes.What about them? Do you think either they or Pilate would have witnessed Jesus's post-resurrection appearances? No-one is seriously disputing that Jesus was crucified.I don't need to prove why it was omitted, I just need to show there are flaws in your argument. The lack of a resurrection account in the earliest gospel is just such a flaw. If all you can do is guess at reasons to explain the flaw, then your argument for the resurrection effectively assumes the resurrection occurred - and it collapses.We do? How?Which it was, since it was in the later gospels that were written before the addition.
Mark doesn't include the resurrection.
Matthew/Luke copy Mark, and add the post-resurrection appearances (inconsistently), possibly following Paul.
Some-one copies Luke's ending into Mark.Probably not, but that's a very different argument - and one that has been covered by the rest of this thread.Very possibly. I shouldn't need to remind you of the many people today who spend their lives teaching something they know to be false.
2) You have the burden of proof for your theory that the Resurrection is a later addition - so NO poking holes is no where near good enough.
3) I've established what I actually argued - you DON'T have the capability of refuting any argument for the Resurrection in 20 seconds - you will probably think otherwise but you're wrong.
I'm tired and sick so I'm bowing out"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Roy View PostGood odds, but not guaranteed, since he doesn't specify which James and there were at least four in that area, and probably more.
Also, Paul uses the same phrasing for the appearance to James as for his own, and implies James's encounter was also post-ascension.
It's possible they were. It's also possible they weren't.
The accounts vary and occasionally contradict, and it's clear that the tale grew and changed over time, and that the earliest gospel was altered to fit the later ones. We know that the gospel texts themselves were changed and harmonized. This is particularly true of the post-resurrection appearance passages.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYeah, right - you're not frustrated so you keep asking people to not engage with you - uh-huh, sure, whatever you say, Carpe.
Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYou might wanna reconsider calling negligence 'style', however.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'm not asking people to "not engage with me."The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Teallaura View Post1) I may have confused the accounts - working off the top of my head.
2) You have the burden of proof for your theory that the Resurrection is a later addition - so NO poking holes is no where near good enough.
3) I've established what I actually argued - you DON'T have the capability of refuting any argument for the Resurrection in 20 seconds - you will probably think otherwise but you're wrong.
I'm tired and sick so I'm bowing out
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe call it faith.
And we have more evidence than just their word for it. At least I do. I have seen Jesus work in my life and in the lives of my family. It would not convince you but it did me. I hope one day you will have such an experience.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, but they who lived with him didn't have faith, they had to see it for themselves,
I'm good with that!
and yet we are expected to believe those who themselves didn't believe.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostConsidering the vast amount of information you (general) do just exactly that with every day, this is a silly argument.
It's also special pleading - our society functions on its ability to take information it cannot witness and evaluate it - judiciary is of course the most obvious, but legislative bodies do exactly the same thing in their decision making processes. Then we get to science and math - Fermat ring a bell? How about gravitational waves? Both useful parts of working theories - and neither proven until relatively recently.
No, it isn't silly Tea, our eternal lives aren't dependent upon our information derived opinions, or conclusions. No one is going to hell due to their conclusion that gravity waves don't exist.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJesus actually has something to say about that - Jesus said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." John 20:29
I'm good with that!
We are to believe God, and the Bible He wrote.
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