Originally posted by Sparko
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostEhrman's opinion is not evidence. NOT mentioning the names is not evidence that Justin Martyr did not know the names or that the names were not known by the church. To claim otherwise is an argument from silence.
I have already provided cites from even earlier church fathers who did quote from the gospels and named apostles.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGreat! then you should not have any problem finding it and presenting it here.
scoot.
I do not spoon feed. It is time you do your own homework. I may refer you to some very good references, but still it is your responsibility to read them.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostEhrman does that better than anyone, and the numerous other Biblical scholars like referred to by Tassman. The books are very detailed and comprehensive by the different Biblical scholars.
I do not spoon feed. It is time you do your own homework. I may refer you to some very good references, but still it is your responsibility to read them.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou're starting to sound like Jorge what with insisting that your view is well supported but its up to everyone else to find the evidence.
You know full well the many books referred to by the scholars that cite the evidence are far more comprehensive than can be cited in posts on this site. Accusations by some that they are atheists or non-believers is even a worse appeal to a fallacy.
There is objective evidence that even the known texts that exist from ~200 to ~500 AD clearly show an evolved, edited, variable, and changed text. This clearly parallel to the history of virtually all ancient text including the Pentateuch.
This is compounded by those that are unable to cite positive objective evidence for dating 'original' gospels in any form, nor with authors, and absurdly appealing to the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance' demanding that skeptics 'prove' that the gospels are not written by the apostles and first witness authors before ~50 AD.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2018, 07:19 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostEhrman does that better than anyone, and the numerous other Biblical scholars like referred to by Tassman. The books are very detailed and comprehensive by the different Biblical scholars.
I do not spoon feed. It is time you do your own homework. I may refer you to some very good references, but still it is your responsibility to read them.
Nice try.
So if YOU are here making the argument that the gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then it is up to YOU to present the evidence. Ehrman is not here to defend his views and you merely referring to him and saying "do your own homework" is nothing but arguing by weblink.
If you cannot support your own argument, then guess what? You lose.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Right.
We have absolutely no reason to doubt that the 4 gospels were written by the 4 traditional authors. Anyone wanting to claim otherwise needs to provide actual physical proof. Not conjecture.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf there is evidence and Ehrman found it, and you read it, then you should have no problem presenting it. As far as I can tell Ehrman, a bitter ex-Christian is just whining and arguing from silence like you are. He is stating an opinion, not giving evidence. I don't think you have even read any of his books. You and Tassy just find quotes on the internet using google. Then when you are called on it, you punt. You have no idea what evidence Ehrman has or lacks.
Nice try.
So if YOU are here making the argument that the gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then it is up to YOU to present the evidence. Ehrman is not here to defend his views and you merely referring to him and saying "do your own homework" is nothing but arguing by weblink.
If you cannot support your own argument, then guess what? You lose.
You are just cursing one of the many messengers, and making no effort to address the whole body of knowledge of the many scholars.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-25-2018, 08:11 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAgain, this is just his opinion. What exactly ARE "the reasons" he refers to? And saying, "we have no way of knowing" pretty much tanks his own argument. He is arguing from silence. Might as well say "We have many reasons to think Jesus was an alien, but of we have no way of knowing"
Right.
We have absolutely no reason to doubt that the 4 gospels were written by the 4 traditional authors. Anyone wanting to claim otherwise needs to provide actual physical proof. Not conjecture.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI don't need a reason to doubt. I need a reason to believe.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is not only Ehrman, but the majority scholars that have studied the origin and literary history of the New Testament. Using Ehrman as a scapegoat for the broader depth of New Testament gets you nowhere.
You are just cursing one of the many messengers, and making no effort to address the whole body of knowledge of the many scholars.
Merely arguing via someone else opinion is not actually providing evidence. It is just referring to someone else's opinion. And arguing that a lot of other people's opinion agree is just argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy, sometimes known as the bandwagon fallacy.
Please provide actual evidence. Show me some complete manuscripts of the gospels that don't have the correct author's names on them, or any name at all.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe problem with you and yours Sparko, is that we could give you 100 reasons to doubt who the authors were and it wouldn't budge your faith in the authors one iota anyway. That's how the minds of cult members function.
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