Originally posted by Sparko
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Underlying Presuppositions
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostAdrift, what do you think Paul means by this: But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
As I have alluded to in my previous post, Paul himself used the wisdom of his age in unpredictable ways so that it became the wisdom of God. He quotes a number of poets, and philosophers that his Gentile audience would have been well familiar with in order for them to make connections to the Gospel. Here's a fantastic list: https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordp...ek-philosophy/Last edited by Adrift; 02-09-2018, 09:40 AM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is one possibility, but not a compelling one, IMO. We have seen perfectly natural processes can produce order to varying degrees. Evolution is one, and the concept applies to both living and nonliving systems. As I noted to Seer, I do not tend to leap to "god did it" by default.
You are using the result (a rational mind and world) and assuming the cause is evolution and then using that as your argument that evolution can produce a rational world. Cart before the horse.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is one possibility, but not a compelling one, IMO. We have seen perfectly natural processes can produce order to varying degrees. Evolution is one, and the concept applies to both living and nonliving systems. As I noted to Seer, I do not tend to leap to "god did it" by default.
1. Did something rather than nothing need to exist - no.
2. Did the universe need to be intelligible - no.
3. Did the laws of physics need to allow a life permitting cosmos - no.
4. Did biological life need to show up - no.
5. Did biological life need to be self-aware - no.
6. Did biological life need to think morally - no.
I guess it is all extremely lucky from your point of view...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is what Lewis was arguing.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat if everything (evolution) was random, then there is no reason to expect that we would have a rational mind. Your "answer" to him as "well we have a rational mind" which plays right into his argument that since we have a rational mind there is a God. So you "answer" to him was not really a rebuttal at all but just a confirmation of his argument. That's all I was getting at.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou are using the result (a rational mind and world) and assuming the cause is evolution and then using that as your argument that evolution can produce a rational world. Cart before the horse.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostThis is what I see if you are correct:
1. Did something rather than nothing need to exist - no.
2. Did the universe need to be intelligible - no.
3. Did the laws of physics need to allow a life permitting cosmos - no.
4. Did biological life need to show up - no.
5. Did biological life need to be self-aware - no.
6. Did biological life need to think morally - no.
I guess it is all extremely lucky from your point of view...
If I consider what might happen when I flip a coin, there is a 50% (1/2) probability of a head (or a tail). If I then flip the coin and it lands heads, probability no longer applies: the coin is heads.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - not cart before the horse. The evolution process does not require a "sentient mind" to operate, and can produce a "sentient mind" which, once produced, can understand evolution. The process itself is not sentient. You appear to be doing what Seer was doing in another thread: assuming that sentience can only arise from sentience. I do not see that as a justified assumption.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have several things on my list:
- The laws of logic and mathematics are immutable, universal, and eternal.
- The universe is intelligible - it operates according to principles that can be codified and understood.
- I have the ability to use my five senses to (imperfectly) collect information about the reality of the universe.
- I have the (imperfect) capacity to reason and process that information to arrive at conclusions.
- Because my sensing and reasoning is imperfect, I should check my reasoning against that of others as much and as often as possible. That will help me to find flaws in my reasoning.
- Because of 3) and 4), it is never possible to be 100% certain about any conclusion.
- I should never add something to an explanation that is not strictly necessary to arrive at the conclusion (Occam's Razor)
- My senses provide reasonably accurate data
- My mental faculties (including memory) are generally reliable
Everything else is verifiable to sufficient extent that it is not an unquestioned assumption.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have no idea how anyone would measure "luck" in that context. That the universe is not necessarily any of those things does not preclude that it can be any or even all of those things. You seem to be making a probablistic argument from a sample space of one. Not only that, the universe IS, so probability becomes somewhat moot.
If I consider what might happen when I flip a coin, there is a 50% (1/2) probability of a head (or a tail). If I then flip the coin and it lands heads, probability no longer applies: the coin is heads.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
- Evolution doesn't prove naturalism, it is simply a possible explanation for it.
- Naturalism does not necessitate materialism.
- His argument about beliefs not needing to be true seems extremely weak to me, for the same reasons I cited before. If our minds evolved in such a way that our perceptions/reasoning were disconnected from reality - then our probability of survival is diminished. Our perceptions and our ability to reason on those perceptions enhances our survival only if it aligns with what is real. Since beliefs are based on those same faculties: perception and reasoning, it follows that our beliefs are likewise able to be true/correct. Consider it this way, if our perceptions are skewed, then the probability that we will see the man-eating beast is reduced, reducing our survival. The probability that we will see the cliff edge is reduced, reducing our survival. He completely ignores this reality, coming to a faulty conclusion as a consequence. Indeed, the rest of his argument fails because of this flaw.
I listened to the rest, but the rest depends on the third item above, so when that failed, the rest failed along with it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd your answer is either ignorance or "nature did it."
But we keep coming back, Seer, to a basic impasse in our discussion. You include in your "baseline presuppositions" the statements "the Christian god is" and "the bible is the word of this god." As I understand it, for you these are as foundational as the core principles of mathematics and logic, or any other a priori truth. As a consequence, what I am saying to you is necessarily goobligook to you. It is analogous to you saying to me, "1 is not equal to 1 is true." I would scratch my head and question your sanity. Since I reject two fundamental presuppositions in your worldview (I do not consider them a priori true - but rather conclusions one reasons to), from your perspective you necessarily have to see me as just as incapable of rational thought as I would see you if you made that mathemattical proposition.
That is not to say you are not entitled to your presuppositions. I just don't see how we get past that disconnect. The very fact that I reject what is a fundamental for you must put me in the category of "irrational," from your perspective.Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-09-2018, 09:58 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is what Lewis was arguing. That if everything (evolution) was random, then there is no reason to expect that we would have a rational mind.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostEvolution is not random. If creatures with rational minds are better able to survive and reproduce than creatures with irrational minds, then evolution will lead to creatures with rational minds.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostEvolution is not random. If creatures with rational minds are better able to survive and reproduce than creatures with irrational minds, then evolution will lead to creatures with rational minds.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat's just your material evolutionary neurological programming talking.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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