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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Underlying Presuppositions
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe Holy Spirit.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes and in Acts Paul just declares who this God is, he does not apologetics to demonstrate God,
Originally posted by seer View Postand yes in Romans he makes the case that all men intuitively already know God, but that they suppress that knowledge.
Originally posted by seer View PostBit I will ask you Adrift - what can be more powerful than the word of God for converting the soul?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI didn't say that these things were not learned, or based on experience. . . . snip . . .Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYes he does. He bridges a gap between their unknown god and the God of the Bible. That's classic apologetics. That's not something they just innately knew. He had to find an approach that would make reasonable and logical sense to his audience.
Eh, I don't think that's a completely correct interpretation of Romans 1. Ben Witherington argues that the Greek word gnōston in verse 19 is not the same thing as being intuitively revealed, but of something that is made evident only after examination. That said, in either case, if the truth is suppressed then it is up to the evangelist to help find ways of unsuppressing it, and apologetics is a great starting point.
Seems pretty straightforward to me...
Lots of things. The word of God isn't magic. If you start reading a Bible over a baby, the baby doesn't magically become a Christian. If someone doesn't believe in God, you can read them the Bible till you're blue in your face...you're unlikely to make headway until you get them to at least agree with you that the existence of a god is even feasible. That will take apologetics. And that's only the start. And apologetics isn't just getting people to believe in God. For instance, Paul makes an apologetic case for the resurrection in 1 Corinthians where he discusses the witnesses of the resurrection, and the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.Last edited by seer; 02-08-2018, 03:24 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight and my belief that the Bible is the Word of God is a fundamental principle that I take as true - a priori...
Originally posted by seer View PostGood, then you can understand my foundational belief (though you may not agree with it)... Unless you are suggesting that you get to have a priori beliefs but I don't.
Originally posted by seer View PostI think I made that clear in our last discussion, that was why I kept refusing to abandon my worldview and adopt yours.
I do not see how meaningful conversation could proceed concerning the existence of god and the role of the bible.
Note, however, that I do not beleive all Christians take this (somewhat extreme) view. Most Christians I have chatted with share a common set of a priori/foundational beliefs with me, but differ in how to reason from those to conclusions about god and the bible. We start from the same place, but accept different evidence in different ways, and end up with different conclusions about god and the bible. I have never actually encountered someone who declared that "god is" and "the bible is the word of god" were true a priori - without recourse to supporting evidence. So I never imagined you were taking that position in our discussions.Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-08-2018, 04:05 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThen how are they different from learning that God is truth? Because you did not come to this conclusion through your learning and experience does not remove them from the list of valid presuppositions.
COnsider it this way. In mathematics, we have a priori principles that are simply "evidently" true. The principle of identity (a = a) is an example. Then we have derived theorems (e.g., Pythagorean Theorem). We have to combine a priori mathematical principles and derive a proof to show that the Pythagorean Theorem is true. It doe snot make it less true - but it is not a priori true.
I would take "my senses provide me with a reasonable grasp of reality" to be an a priori truth. I cannot prove it to you. It is true to me on the basis of my experience of reality. The same is true of laws of mathematics, logic, the universe being intelligible, etc. When someone says to me "the bible is the word of god is an a priori truth," I cannot agree. There is nothing about that statement that is "self-evident." It is a conclusion I may (or may not) reach by combining a collection of evidence and reasoning to the likely truth of the proposition. If it were truly a priori true, you would see a far more universal level of acceptance in the human population than we do.
Am I making any sense at all?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seerGive me evidence that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality...
All Carped has to say to you is that he believes that there's an external reality, and he can experience it using his senses. No more need be said. He doesn't have to justify this belief, as its foundational to his worldview.
And the challenges in presuppositional apologetics aren't merely of the form "what's your basis for X", its more like "given what you believe you should reject X". C.S Lewis did this when he questioned whether a materialist worldview, with its mechanistic and completely deterministic physics would result in us not being able to reliably know the truth. Plantinga's argument follows this line as well. In fact just about any presuppositional line of argument attacks exactly the ability to reason, and what needs to be true for this to be the case.
Plantinga's argument is quite a powerful version. I highly recommend it, if you wanna pursue this line of argumentation.Last edited by Leonhard; 02-08-2018, 04:47 PM.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostAgain, not to rag on you seer, but I don't think that's a strong line of attack. You're not attacking his pressuppositions, you're asking him for something neither he nor anyone can give you. Solipsism, that is the complete denial of knowledge of the external reality (or complete despair of obtaining it), is every bit as self-consistent as theism. Its unliveable, and no one holds to it, but its perfectly self-consistent. Therefore presuppositional apologetics, the good parts, can't really interact with that. There's nothing to challenge such a person on.
All Carped has to say to you is that he believes that there's an external reality, and he can experience it using his senses. No more need be said. He doesn't have to justify this belief, as its foundational to his worldview.
And the challenges in presuppositional apologetics aren't merely of the form "what's your basis for X", its more like "given what you believe you should reject X". C.S Lewis did this when he questioned whether a materialist worldview, with its mechanistic and completely deterministic physics would result in us not being able to reliably know the truth. Plantinga's argument follows this line as well. In fact just about any presuppositional line of argument attacks exactly the ability to reason, and what needs to be true for this to be the case.
Plantinga's argument is quite a powerful version. I highly recommend it, if you wanna pursue this line of argumentation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Much as I love C.S. Lewis, and the rest of his Inkling brethern, this would be my reply to C.S. Lewis, to what I beleive is his flaw in this quote:
Dear Mr. Lewis:
We can come to trust our own thinking to be true in a fairly simple way: that it can reliably be counted on to anticipate outcomes. If the mind were truly random, and disconnected from reality, then any decision I make would be entirely random, and the probability that I would chose X and die would be equal to the probability that I choose X and live. Few individuals would survive beyond a few moments in such a universe. The luckiest might survive a few hours, perhaps as much as a day. But this is not what we find. Indeed, we find that our ability to observe the universe around us, and to make choices that enhance our ability to survive, is fairly consistent. We can survive decades based on nothing more than our senses and our ability to reason.
This can only happen as consistently as it does if a) our senses can be (mostly) trusted, and b) our ability to reason on that information can likewise be trusted. I do not need a god for that. Evolution is enough to weed out those who do not have senses/thought connected to reality.Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-08-2018, 06:03 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostSolipsism, that is the complete denial of knowledge of the external reality (or complete despair of obtaining it), is every bit as self-consistent as theism. Its unliveable, and no one holds to it, but its perfectly self-consistent. Therefore presuppositional apologetics, the good parts, can't really interact with that. There's nothing to challenge such a person on.
Does my preferred view of "the world is a virtual reality computer game that we're all in" (Sim World, or The Matrix if you will) count as solipsism to you? If I add that I'm really not sure about it, and there are lots of other possibilities many of which include the lack of reality of the perceive world, do I get bonus solipsism points? (If you want to give me a medal for solipsism, I can doubt the existence of said medal for you)"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostPossible solipsist checking in.
Does my preferred view of "the world is a virtual reality computer game that we're all in" (Sim World, or The Matrix if you will) count as solipsism to you? If I add that I'm really not sure about it, and there are lots of other possibilities many of which include the lack of reality of the perceive world, do I get bonus solipsism points? (If you want to give me a medal for solipsism, I can doubt the existence of said medal for you)
On the other hand, my experience of "reality" is simply too "real" to ignore. The idea that I might be a computer-based AI just seems too "out there" to accept as a real possibility. Knowing what I know about computers, the demands it would place on a computing system to craft reality down to the sub-nano level as we experience would be mind-boggling. It's not clear to me it is even possible, never mind likely.
So it's a fun idea - but I don't take it all that seriously.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have to admit to having a love/hate relationship with solipsism.
I could be a self-aware computer construct, and I can prove I am or am not.
On the other hand, my experience of "reality" is simply too "real" to ignore. The idea that I might be a computer-based AI just seems too "out there" to accept as a real possibility.
So, given that scenario, the total number of universes that exist will be 1 (the real universe) + ~12 (or however many times the scientists of a given species see fit to run a simulation) * number of species in the universe (>=1) + any universes simulated by species in those sub-universes and sub-subuniverses. So the number of total universes, simulated or real, will be somewhere in the range of 13 to hundreds or thousands or millions. So given we find ourselves in a universe, what are the chances it is the real universe and not a simulated one? Somewhere in the 0.000000000001% to 8% range.
However, I do agree with your view that if we were to run such a simulation on our computers, then any lifeforms they simulated would not be conscious. Those life forms would not have a first-person subjective experience of conscious life. So for that reason, I too, reject Elon Musk's simulation hypothesis: Not because I think doing a computer simulation of a universe is implausible (I think it's actually inevitable) but because of my views on the nature of consciousness / mind-body dualism.
Knowing what I know about computers, the demands it would place on a computing system to craft reality down to the sub-nano level as we experience would be mind-boggling.
But in all those respects, Musk's Simulation hypothesis differs significantly from my own Computer Game hypothesis. If this universe is a virtual reality computer game which we enter into in order to play, then our existence and our consciousness are not products of this universe they exist in the real/parent universe are merely been fed sensory data that mimics a universe. In the computer game hypothesis we existed before we were born into this universe, and will exist after we die in this universe - and that is quite different to the Simulation hypothesis where we are byproducts of the simulation (and will cease to exist instantly if the simulation is turned off by its creators) and are AI entities that exist only within the computer that is simulating the universe. The computer game hypothesis is also not remotely as resource-intensive because it need only simulate the sensory data it is feeding to the players and it can take all sorts of short-cuts as games typically do to save on computational resources - a tree falling in the woods need not exist if no one is there to hear it, so the computer game need not track the state of the tree until a player returns to that location (and then it needs to 'collapse the wavefunction' and do some calculations about what the state of the tree is in order to feed sensory data to the player).
We can run the same probabilistic argument as for the simulation argument... How many fully-immersive virtual reality computer games are likely to be created by our species in the future (answer: a lot), and how many times are they likely to be placed (answer: a lot)? So of all 'lives' lived, both real and in-fully-immersive-games, what is the ratio between real lives and in-game lives? Answer: The number of in-game lives lived is likely to be many orders of magnitude greater than the number of real lives lived. So if we find ourselves living a life, probabilistically it is exceedingly likely to be an in-game one."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain - I distinguish between "foundational" or "a priori" truths - truths that are self-evident once the mind has matured enough to grasp them, and derived conclusions, which depend on reasoning from foundational truths or other derived conclusions.
COnsider it this way. In mathematics, we have a priori principles that are simply "evidently" true. The principle of identity (a = a) is an example. Then we have derived theorems (e.g., Pythagorean Theorem). We have to combine a priori mathematical principles and derive a proof to show that the Pythagorean Theorem is true. It doe snot make it less true - but it is not a priori true.
I would take "my senses provide me with a reasonable grasp of reality" to be an a priori truth. I cannot prove it to you. It is true to me on the basis of my experience of reality. The same is true of laws of mathematics, logic, the universe being intelligible, etc. When someone says to me "the bible is the word of god is an a priori truth," I cannot agree. There is nothing about that statement that is "self-evident." It is a conclusion I may (or may not) reach by combining a collection of evidence and reasoning to the likely truth of the proposition. If it were truly a priori true, you would see a far more universal level of acceptance in the human population than we do.
Am I making any sense at all?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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