Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Underlying Presuppositions
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMy presupposition is that I am right and everyone else is wrong.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThe fact that you arrive at your faith as a result of evaluation does not preclude adding it to the list of presuppositions. I did not come to faith in Christ until I was in my early thirties so it could not have been a presupposition prior to that time. My trust in the rest of your list of presuppositions did not come full blown when I was born, I had to learn them as well as my faith. The fact that you fail to see this, and your response make me question your ability to reason.
As for your question about my ability to reason......I'll leave that to you to sort out.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostActually the argument being made by Presuppositional Apologetics is much stronger than it being merely a 'best explanation'. In order for this sort of transcendental argumentation to work out, only the theistic worldview can make the world intelligible. The believer, starting from the viewpoint of theism, challenges the unbeliever to make sense of the world. To account for facts and his way of thinking. This is best done with specific arguments that show that the unbeliever, if consistent, would have to deny that he can know anything, not even with any probability.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer, for me, the idea of god is a conclusion I reach looking at the available evidence. So provide me with the evidence, and I will look at it and come to a conclusion. That evidence has to fit within the framework of my assumptions.
For you, god IS one of those assumptions. Ergo, your belief in this being is not based on evidence - it is an unproven foundation on which the rest of what you believe rests (if "assumption" means to you what it does to me). Given that I require evidence for my beliefs about god, and you do not, there is no basis for discussion/debate. You will always come back to "but this is a given assumption of my worldview - you can't question it." For me, the existence of such a being is a conclusion, not an assumption, so I can (and do) question it. That means I may move from atheism to theism or the reverse as the evidence leads me. As far as I can tell, you are locked into theism and cannot consider other possibilities.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMy OP was intended, if it was not clear, to focus on the bedrock assumptions of our worldviews; the ones that we do not derive from reasoning on even more base assumptions.
- The laws of logic and mathematics are immutable, universal, and eternal.
How do you know without studying math and testing it?
- The universe is intelligible - it operates according to principles that can be codified and understood.
You just were born knowing this?
- I have the ability to use my five senses to (imperfectly) collect information about the reality of the universe.
OK. Given. - I have the (imperfect) capacity to reason and process that information to arrive at conclusions.
Given. - Because my sensing and reasoning is imperfect, I should check my reasoning against that of others as much and as often as possible. That will help me to find flaws in my reasoning.
How did you come to this conclusion? You first had to test it by seeing if you were wrong in something you thought.
So how is that different from believing in God as a presupposition?
A presupposition is just a position you hold going into an argument. It says nothing about whether you came to that presupposition through logic and reason or not. In other words, if Seer comes to a debate with the presupposition that God exists, that doesn't mean it is irrational or that he did not study diligently to come to that conclusion and once he did make it a presupposition in his world view.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat do you mean Carp? Where is your evidence that the laws of logic are universal, immutable and eternal?
Originally posted by seer View PostYour particular experience - you do know that you can not argue from the particular to the universal? And in essence you are working backwards - from your experience of applying logic to the laws of logic being universal.
Originally posted by seer View PostGive me evidence that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality... And I'm not sure what I'm locked into since I was agnostic for the first 37 years of my life.
Likewise, if you see "god is" as such a foundational concept (true without the need for evidence) and I do not, then we likewise do not have a basis for discussion. For you - this is a foundational truth on which other truths may build. Evidence is irrelevant. For me it is a conclusion, on which other truths may build. For me to accept "god is" or "god isn't" requires evidence. For you, if it is truly a foundational principle, it does not.
Unless I am misunderstanding you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYet your list in the OP was a list of things that were derived from reasoning.
- The laws of logic and mathematics are immutable, universal, and eternal.
How do you know without studying math and testing it?
- The universe is intelligible - it operates according to principles that can be codified and understood.
You just were born knowing this?
- I have the ability to use my five senses to (imperfectly) collect information about the reality of the universe.
OK. Given. - I have the (imperfect) capacity to reason and process that information to arrive at conclusions.
Given. - Because my sensing and reasoning is imperfect, I should check my reasoning against that of others as much and as often as possible. That will help me to find flaws in my reasoning.
How did you come to this conclusion? You first had to test it by seeing if you were wrong in something you thought.
So how is that different from believing in God as a presupposition?
A presupposition is just a position you hold going into an argument. It says nothing about whether you came to that presupposition through logic and reason or not. In other words, if Seer comes to a debate with the presupposition that God exists, that doesn't mean it is irrational or that he did not study diligently to come to that conclusion and once he did make it a presupposition in his world view.
As for belief in god, I did not suggest that someone cannot have this as a base assumption that is not subject to evidence/proof. What I believe I said was that I do not, which makes discussion impossible between me and someone who sees this premises/belief as a "fundamental" assumption. If belief in a god is a baseline assumption, then it is being accepted without recourse to more fundamental assumptions. It is considered "a priori" true.
Look, I think of assumptions as falling into two groups: those that are derived from other assumptions, and those that are not. My OP attempted to list those things that, for me, were in the latter class. For me, belief in god is in the former class. So someone can challenge my statement "god is not" by asking me to outline the base assumptions and my reasoning process to get to that conclusion, and pointing out either where an assumption was incorrect, or the reasoning was flawed. But if someone places "god is" in the latter class, then it is baseline - which means it is considered a priori true and not subject to reasoning on more base assumptions - it IS a base assumption.
So the most I can say to this person is, "I don't agree that's a base assumption." We have no further basis for discussion because this person believes "god is" is a fundamental on which other things build. It is not subject to contradiction. That person cannot even conceive of "god is not" as true any more than I can conceive "1 is not equal to 1" as true.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostA presupposition is just a position you hold going into an argument. It says nothing about whether you came to that presupposition through logic and reason or not. In other words, if Seer comes to a debate with the presupposition that God exists, that doesn't mean it is irrational or that he did not study diligently to come to that conclusion and once he did make it a presupposition in his world view.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAs far as I can tell, typically when people are referring to presuppositional belief in God's existence, they actually do mean a belief that wasn't arrived at. So, for instance, Alvin Plantinga argues that some people may have a properly basic belief that God exists that does not rely on deductive reasoning. He further argues that this sort of belief may be rational, warranted and justified. This would be a presuppositional view of God. I think Plantinga's work on this subject is fascinating, and agree with WL Craig that it's a great counter to evidentialism. However, I think it has limited application in evangelism if your purpose is to get others to believe in the God you believe in. Furthermore, those who practice presuppositional apologetics typically avoid Classical apologetics (and don't seem to know Plantinga), and act as though all they need to do is throw Bible verses at a skeptic, and that somehow, through some sort of arcane mysticism, the skeptic will read the right combination of words, and something will just click in their head; Will make them want to accept the Holy Spirit. In my experience, that almost never ever happens in real life unless the individual in question already accepts some of evangelist's presuppositions. There's a few people on this forum who use this tact all the time, and it backfires on them just about every time.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSince that is on my list of "assumptions," by definition this is one of the baselines for which I cannot offer a proof. It is a fundamental principle I take as true a priori.
So I see it this way: there is nothing in our brains that is not there as a function of a) experience, or b) reasoning on that experience. We experience our universe from the moment we become capable of reasoning, and eventually recognize basic principles: the law of identity, the law of non contradiction. We may not be able to formulate an expression of these realities until we are more mature, but even a child will recognize the conflict of claiming that a thing is and isn't simultaenously and in the same way at the same time. Even a child recognizes the general principle of identity. I cannot prove to you that these principles are universal and eternal and absolute - that is what makes them "foundational" for me. I accept them as true without proof, and the rest of my worldview builds on that.
As I said, Seer - this is a foundational belief of my worldview, ergo, I cannot provide you with evidence or a proof. That is why it is "foundational." I accept it as true on it's face. If you and I do not agree that our senses provide us with a reasonable (but imperfect) view of reality, then we have no basis for discussion.
For you - this is a foundational truth on which other truths may build. Evidence is irrelevant. For me it is a conclusion, on which other truths may build. For me to accept "god is" or "god isn't" requires evidence. For you, if it is truly a foundational principle, it does not.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYeah but Jesus was already talking to believers in God.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYeah but Jesus was already talking to believers in God.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostRight. Paul, too, is often discussing issues with believers who are familiar with the Gospel, but he does use some apologetics. For instance, at Mars Hill he appeals to the unknown god. Or in Romans 1 he talks about God's eternal power and divine nature being clearly seen through his creation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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