Empiricism

[seer]

Parents do not equate to God in omniscient knowledge of human nature and how and when people will fall in to temptation. God knows how and when they will; parents can only hope they won't.

Well look what the cat dragged in! But how does the above change anything? God knows for certain that we well do specific wicked things, parents know for certain that their children will eventually do some wicked things.

[JohnnyP]

Parents do not equate to God in omniscient knowledge of human nature and how and when people will fall in to temptation. God knows how and when they will; parents can only hope they won't.

If you go back a couple posts I say that "the Son as creator was not omniscient" so he didn't know exactly how creation would sin. Just like as parents we know our children may fail sometimes, we don't know exactly how. Example to support non-omniscience up to incarnation:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

[Cerebrum123]

I have not used the bias card, ah . . . yet. simply you have not addressed the points I addressed. First, unlike the policeman, God determined in advance the human nature, that made humans fallible and definitely subject to falling to temptation. Like the children and the cookie jar, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden with the tree. God set up the circumstances of the temptation and eventually like the children and the cookie jar, they were doomed to succumb. It was entrapment big time.

No it wasn't, and you haven't dealt with the arguments. Foreknowledge doesn't equal causation. Adam and Eve were given every advantage and still fell. Our fallen nature didn't kick in until after the curse. They were both created "very good", and very intelligent. So far entrapment is asserted, not shown.

[Rational Gaze]

Ah, I see that the esteemed intellectual Tassman has returned. Alongside Shuny, that's two members of the brainless bunch. I was wondering when these gutter rats would come crawling back out of whatever cesspool they usually dwell in when they're not busy spewing forth festering pieces of offal and factually incorrect garbage on the Internet. I guess it was too much to hope that they'd simply be too dumb to figure out when the new TWeb was back up. Heh, I wonder how long it will take Tassman to begin arguing that TWeb going down was a wilful conspiracy on the part of the Christian-led Intelligentsia. Such master logicians, whatever will we do?

[firstfloor]

Ah, I see that the esteemed intellectual Tassman has returned. Alongside Shuny, that's two members of the brainless bunch. I was wondering when these gutter rats would come crawling back out of whatever cesspool they usually dwell in when they're not busy spewing forth festering pieces of offal and factually incorrect garbage on the Internet. I guess it was too much to hope that they'd simply be too dumb to figure out when the new TWeb was back up. Heh, I wonder how long it will take Tassman to begin arguing that TWeb going down was a wilful conspiracy on the part of the Christian-led Intelligentsia. Such master logicians, whatever will we do?

In other words: Tassman, Shuny, How nice it is to see you again.

[Tassman]

Ah, I see that the esteemed intellectual Tassman has returned. Alongside Shuny, that's two members of the brainless bunch. I was wondering when these gutter rats would come crawling back out of whatever cesspool they usually dwell in when they're not busy spewing forth festering pieces of offal and factually incorrect garbage on the Internet. I guess it was too much to hope that they'd simply be too dumb to figure out when the new TWeb was back up. Heh, I wonder how long it will take Tassman to begin arguing that TWeb going down was a wilful conspiracy on the part of the Christian-led Intelligentsia. Such master logicians, whatever will we do?

Ah, Rational Gaze. Charming as ever!

In other words: Tassman, Shuny, How nice it is to see you again.

Thank you. Happy to be back.

[Tassman]

Well look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you too.

But how does the above change anything? God knows for certain that we well do specific wicked things, parents know for certain that their children will eventually do some wicked things.

Parents do not know how their offspring will fare. They can only acculturate them, instruct them and hope for the best. OTOH God is supposedly omniscient and therefore knows, even as he creates them, exactly how they will turn out. It's nonsensical to claim he programs 'free will' into them when he knows in advance exactly how they will fail.

[Tassman]

My own view, the Son as creator was not omniscient, and didn't know that Adam and Eve would fail. A non-omniscient creator allows for free will and would not be dictating or setting anyone up to fail on specific matters, even though he may know in a general way people would sometimes fail. To say that we are created with free will and may sometimes fail, isn't saying that we are doomed to fail in every way, we don't all rape and murder for example. So it may be that Adam and Eve may have failed in other ways besides eating from the Tree of Knowledge, without going to that one particular thing that would cause them death.

I don't think that's a correct understanding to the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, i.e. Jesus being fully God and Fully Man in combination with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity which refers to the complete union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost as three persons in one Godhead. Admittedly, these doctrines tend to be glossed over as "mysteries" (some would say contradictions) but I don't think we can have some parts of this mystical union acting without the full knowledge of the other parts.

[seer]

Glad to see you too.

TWeb would not be the same without you! Every family has its black sheep...

Parents do not know how their offspring will fare. They can only acculturate them, instruct them and hope for the best. OTOH God is supposedly omniscient and therefore knows, even as he creates them, exactly how they will turn out. It's nonsensical to claim he programs 'free will' into them when he knows in advance exactly how they will fail.

It is a difference in degrees and not in kind. Every parent of a normal child knows for certain that that child will disobey them in one way or another, sooner or later. What we know in general God knows in specific.

[JohnnyP]

I don't think that's a correct understanding to the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, i.e. Jesus being fully God and Fully Man in combination with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity which refers to the complete union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost as three persons in one Godhead. Admittedly, these doctrines tend to be glossed over as "mysteries" (some would say contradictions) but I don't think we can have some parts of this mystical union acting without the full knowledge of the other parts.

Jesus would still be fully God and man during the incarnation, with the Father's nature to partake of if he wanted to, but deciding to be subordinate to the Father. There is no getting around that during his incarnation he was not omniscient, he didn't know when some events from Olivet Discourse would take place, and didn't seem to know if the Father would spare him the crucifixion.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I don't believe Jesus had a "memory wipe" for the incarnation and forgot things he knew from eternity, but rather, held off on partaking of all powers of the Father until it was given him after his death, examples:

Matthew 29:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

[Rational Gaze]

Ah, Rational Gaze. Charming as ever!

Oh, I aim to please, good sir. In fact, during the time that TWeb was down, I spent considerable time sharpening my rhetorical skills for our mutual entertainment! Hopefully, when some interesting threads get put up, we can get back to calling each other names just like in the good old days.

[Tassman]

TWeb would not be the same without you! Every family has its black sheep...

It is a difference in degrees and not in kind. Every parent of a normal child knows for certain that that child will disobey them in one way or another, sooner or later.

What we know in general God knows in specific.

[Tassman]

Jesus would still be fully God and man during the incarnation, with the Father's nature to partake of if he wanted to, but deciding to be subordinate to the Father. There is no getting around that during his incarnation he was not omniscient, he didn't know when some events from Olivet Discourse would take place, and didn't seem to know if the Father would spare him the crucifixion.

I don't believe Jesus had a "memory wipe" for the incarnation and forgot things he knew from eternity, but rather, held off on partaking of all powers of the Father until it was given him after his death, examples:

I think it is the so-called 'kenotic passage' (Philippians 2:7) that best refers to what you are arguing, namely that Christ "emptied himself".

[JohnnyP]

Actually, there is no getting around the fact any discussion on the nature of the Holy Trinity and Hypostatic Union will end up with nonsense and/or heresy, because it is essentially contradictory. This is why the Church is reduced to referring to it as a ‘Holy Mystery’ - to be accepted on faith rather than understanding.

I don't see any contradiction if the Son had the nature of the Father but didn't partake of it, preferring to be subordinate receiving only what the Father gave him, it's not much of a mystery to me. The point is, having the same God nature he could have partaken of it, it wouldn't have been robbery (Philippians 2:7).

It's like if you and your dad opened a bank account at the same time with equal rights and powers over the money, but you preferred to be subordinate to your dad receiving only what he gave you. Etc.

I think it is the so-called 'kenotic passage' (Philippians 2:7) that best refers to what you are arguing, namely that Christ "emptied himself".

There's nothing to say Jesus emptied himself of memory, or that he was ever confused about who he was, we are told at least from the age of 12 he knew he was doing his Father's business. And he knew something about his pre-existence -- we can take it as is that he always knew this, or make up a theory that he forgot about it when incarnated, then was told about it at some point during his incarnation:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Rather everything says he emptied himself of immortal status to become flesh and die, not much more elaboration. A similar verse:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Resorting to Occam's Razor, we can assume either:

1. Jesus was omniscient before incarnation.
2. Jesus had a major memory wipe for incarnation.
3. Jesus became omniscient again after death.

Or go with least assumptions:

1. Jesus wasn't omniscient before incarnation.
2. Jesus was omniscient after death.

Not only “knows in specific” but the omniscient deity had complete foreknowledge of what he was programming when creating us and knew precisely what the consequences would be for each and every one of us before we were born. It is nonsensical to speak of free-will in such circumstances.

That's how a non-omniscient Son as creator allows for free will.

[MaxVel]

Not only “knows in specific” but the omniscient deity had complete foreknowledge of what he was programming when creating us and knew precisely what the consequences would be for each and every one of us before we were born. It is nonsensical to speak of free-will in such circumstances.

God knowing what we will choose to do does not mean that we are not free to choose it.