Empiricism

[firstfloor]

Because FF, there my be something more than mere nature informing our ethical reasoning.

But when you search for that ingredient you find nothing but nature. Therefore it is natural. It has to be even though we are confused about how it works. We are that mysterious ingredient. The thing you pray to is your goodself.

[seer]

But when you search for that ingredient you find nothing but nature. Therefore it is natural.

That is just silly. There is no reason to assume that our ethical sense was only formed by nature.

The thing you pray to is your goodself.

The thing I pray to is the God of scripture through His Christ.

[Meh Gerbil]

The story of the Fall is about what happens when Sapiens Manboons decide thinking for themselves is a good idea.

Actually, the fall is about what happens when man decides to make himself a judge.

[Darth Executor]

Actually, the fall is about what happens when man decides to make himself a judge.

Man was already a judge.

[shunyadragon]

Actually, the fall is about what happens when man decides to make himself a judge.

Actually the fall is about what a mythical Divine being sets up an unfortunate two humans to temptation which because of their created fallible nature are doomed to fall, they are guilty of nothing but being human as God created. This is not in reality a true representation of the origins of humanity. It is just an ancient myth of human origins, a problematic result of what is believed unfortunately as original sin.
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[Cerebrum123]

Actually the fall is about what a mythical Divine being sets up an unfortunate two humans to temptation which because of their created fallible nature are doomed to fall, they are guilty of nothing but being human as God created. This is not in reality a true representation of the origins of humanity. It is just an ancient myth of human origins, a problematic result of what is believed as original sin.
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That's not what happened at all. They purposely disobeyed God, in something that would have been supremely easy to avoid doing. It was their own desire to become like God that led to their downfall.

[shunyadragon]

That's not what happened at all. They purposely disobeyed God, in something that would have been supremely easy to avoid doing. It was their own desire to become like God that led to their downfall.

That is what unfortunately is described in the myth. God created humans with the weaknesses to succumb to a temptation where they would ultimately fall regardless as long as the tree was there. They were set up as fallible humans. If you leave the cookie jar within reach of the children and tell them they cannot have it, eventually they will succumb and take the candy, because of the fallible human nature.

[JohnnyP]

Soft atheism is simply another way to say agnosticism.

Problem is more and more are identifying as atheists not agnostics by claiming lack belief in gods, rather than belief in no gods, the first being a more "scientific" approach of not forming conclusions without proof and more easily defended.

[Manw� S�limo]

Funny thing. "Weakness to succumb to temptation" is just a synonym for "free will to decide whether or not to reject temptation".

[Cerebrum123]

That is what unfortunately is described in the myth. God created humans with the weaknesses to succumb to a temptation where they would ultimately fall regardless as long as the tree was there. They were set up as fallible humans. If you leave the cookie jar within reach of the children and tell them they cannot have it, eventually they will succumb and take the candy, because of the fallible human nature.

They were told the punishment, they knew the consequences, and they were told lies by a being that was supposed to be under their dominion. Absolutely nothing close to what you are describing. As for the common view that it was "entrapment". This video explains it well in a short amount of time.

And don't even start with the "bias" crap. It cuts both ways, and I can simply dismiss you with it if you use it.

[JohnnyP]

That is what unfortunately is described in the myth. God created humans with the weaknesses to succumb to a temptation where they would ultimately fall regardless as long as the tree was there. They were set up as fallible humans. If you leave the cookie jar within reach of the children and tell them they cannot have it, eventually they will succumb and take the candy, because of the fallible human nature.

My own view, the Son as creator was not omniscient, and didn't know that Adam and Eve would fail. A non-omniscient creator allows for free will and would not be dictating or setting anyone up to fail on specific matters, even though he may know in a general way people would sometimes fail. To say that we are created with free will and may sometimes fail, isn't saying that we are doomed to fail in every way, we don't all rape and murder for example. So it may be that Adam and Eve may have failed in other ways besides eating from the Tree of Knowledge, without going to that one particular thing that would cause them death.

[shunyadragon]

They were told the punishment, they knew the consequences, and they were told lies by a being that was supposed to be under their dominion. Absolutely nothing close to what you are describing. As for the common view that it was "entrapment". This video explains it well in a short amount of time.

And don't even start with the "bias" crap. It cuts both ways, and I can simply dismiss you with it if you use it.

I have not used the bias card, ah . . . yet. simply you have not addressed the points I addressed. First, unlike the policeman, God determined in advance the human nature, that made humans fallible and definitely subject to falling to temptation. Like the children and the cookie jar, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden with the tree. God set up the circumstances of the temptation and eventually like the children and the cookie jar, they were doomed to succumb. It was entrapment big time.

[JohnnyP]

First, unlike the policeman, God determined in advance the human nature, that made humans fallible and definitely subject to falling to temptation. Like the children and the cookie jar, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden with the tree. God set up the circumstances of the temptation and eventually like the children and the cookie jar, they were doomed to succumb. It was entrapment big time.

To add, if we as parents bring children into the world where rape, murder, etc. exist, knowing children may sin in some ways but hopefully not all ways, are we entrapping them and setting them up for rape, murder, etc. if they go ahead and commit those crimes?

[Tassman]

To add, if we as parents bring children into the world where rape, murder, etc. exist, knowing children may sin in some ways but hopefully not all ways, are we entrapping them and setting them up for rape, murder, etc. if they go ahead and commit those crimes?

Parents do not equate to God in omniscient knowledge of human nature and how and when people will fall in to temptation. God knows how and when they will; parents can only hope they won't.

[seer]

I have not used the bias card, ah . . . yet. simply you have not addressed the points I addressed. First, unlike the policeman, God determined in advance the human nature, that made humans fallible and definitely subject to falling to temptation. Like the children and the cookie jar, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden with the tree. God set up the circumstances of the temptation and eventually like the children and the cookie jar, they were doomed to succumb. It was entrapment big time.

That just does not follow Shuny. You have to assume that Adam and Eve did not also have the ability to obey. But I think that assumption is invalid. Even in our present fallen condition we, to degrees, have the ability to obey. I don't murder, rape, steal, etc...