Do you believe in zombies?

[JimL]

So where are they recorded as having done so, JimL? It is not written (according to that statement) that "they will do whatever they pleased to Elijah himself."
The way that Jesus' response is worded doesn't eliminate the possibility that he is using "Elijah" as {FOR EXAMPLE} a reference to the holder of an office: anyone who acts as the forerunner might be termed Elijah. If there is no prophecy that Elijah himself will return - it is highly probable that he won't.

Malichi 4:5-6 prophesied Elijah the prophets return. Now in speaking of his return, it specifically says Elijah the prophet. Now people like CP can try to make it say what they need it to say, but the fact is that it specifically says that Elijah the prophet will come, and Jesus says too, that Elijah has come. And to make it clear that they are meant to be one in the same person, they have John the Baptist clothed the same way Elijah was described as being clothed. "In camels hair and a leathern belt tied around his waist."

[tabibito]

Malichi 4:5-6 prophesied Elijah the prophets return. Now in speaking of his return, it specifically says Elijah the prophet. Now people like CP can try to make it say what they need it to say, but the fact is that it specifically says that Elijah the prophet will come, and Jesus says too, that Elijah has come.

Accepted. And with that, I'll accept (as a probability) that Elijah did indeed return. ETA (with the note that seeing as he was taken up to heaven without having died, reincarnation as such would not necessarily play a part.)

[JimL]

Accepted. And with that, I'll accept (as a probability) that Elijah did indeed return. ETA (with the note that seeing as he was taken up to heaven without having died, reincarnation as such would not necessarily play a part.)

Well, in so far as the bible is historical yes. In reality, no. But the point was that Elijah, along with Moses, was resurrected prior to Jesus, and he not only went up to heaven and but came down from heaven, which contradicts Jesus statement that no one but himself has been up to and come down from heaven.

[Cow Poke]

Well, in so far as the bible is historical yes. In reality, no. But the point was that Elijah, along with Moses, was resurrected prior to Jesus, and he not only went up to heaven and but came down from heaven, which contradicts Jesus statement that no one but himself has been up to and come down from heaven.

You really don't understand the concept of resurrection. Elijah did not die, and was, therefore, not resurrected.

[tabibito]

Well, in so far as the bible is historical yes. In reality, no. But the point was that Elijah, along with Moses, was resurrected prior to Jesus, and he not only went up to heaven and but came down from heaven, which contradicts Jesus statement that no one but himself has been up to and come down from heaven.

There we have a problem - Elijah was taken up to heaven alive, so - probably no resurrection involved; not with regard to John, and certainly not (necessarily) in regard to his appearance together with Moses on the mountain; a living, breathing body being something of a prerequisite for a resurrection to have occurred. Samuel's appearance to Saul (or was it the witch at Endor only) was not done in a physical body, and it is likely that Moses and Elijah were not in physical bodies. Without an assertion that they were present in physical bodies, the case for a contradiction fails ... admittedly though, the case for a possible contradiction might be sustained.

Again (I believe it was Teallaura who made mention of this also) there is a distinction between being taken up to or being brought down from heaven (or anywhere else),and ascending to or descending from heaven (or anywhere else). The first is only partially volitional at best. The second is only partially non-volitional at worst (a matter of being under compulsion). So, no, the claim that there is a contradiction can not be supported.

[rogue06]

Well, in so far as the bible is historical yes. In reality, no. But the point was that Elijah, along with Moses, was resurrected prior to Jesus, and he not only went up to heaven and but came down from heaven, which contradicts Jesus statement that no one but himself has been up to and come down from heaven.

Um, one of the basic requirements for being resurrected is that you have to die first. But the text makes it clear that Elijah did not die but rather he was still very much alive when he was taken up to heaven.

As Per Ahlberg is fond of saying, "First understand, then criticize; not the other way round!" As for myself, I prefer "fail better."

[Cow Poke]

There we have a problem - Elijah was taken up to heaven alive, so - probably no resurrection involved;....

Probably?

[tabibito]

Probably?

Insofar as I can tell ...
In terms of what can be asserted factual on the basis of the Biblical record, "probably" is as good as can be stated.

[Cow Poke]

Insofar as I can tell ...
In terms of what can be asserted factual on the basis of the Biblical record, "probably" is as good as can be stated.

Living persons are not resurrected. Elijah, according to the Biblical record, "went up into heaven in a whirlwind", and was alive at the time. That's a lot more than "probably".

[tabibito]

Living persons are not resurrected. Elijah, according to the Biblical record, "went up into heaven in a whirlwind", and was alive at the time. That's a lot more than "probably".

We don't have a declaration that Elijah arrived in heaven alive, nor that he didn't die subsequent to arriving in heaven. (And I am making an allowance for hyper-literalism, admittedly.)

[Cow Poke]

We don't have a declaration that Elijah arrived in heaven alive, nor that he didn't die subsequent to arriving in heaven. (And I am making an allowance for hyper-literalism, admittedly.)

wow

[JimL]

You really don't understand the concept of resurrection. Elijah did not die, and was, therefore, not resurrected.

Resurrected or not, he went up to heaven and came back down, which is a contradiction of Jesus's words. But, Moses did die, and he was seen at the transfiguration, so he was resurrected, he also went up to heaven and came back down. Again, a contradiction.

[Cow Poke]

Resurrected or not, he went up to heaven and came back down, which is a contradiction of Jesus's words. But, Moses did die, and he was seen at the transfiguration, so he was resurrected, he also went up to heaven and came back down. Again, a contradiction.

Jim, Jesus came down from Heaven, was born of a virgin, and walked this earth. I know you don't believe that, but it's the biblical record, which you are vainly attempting to argue.

Neither Moses nor Elijah (glad to see you back down from claiming Elijah was resurrected) "walked the earth", and Jesus even refers to the event as a "vision" - Matt 17:9.

Jesus was "transfigured", and it is in that condition that he and Moses and Elijah speak to one another. There is no claim that Elijah and Moses actually "touched down" on earth in the physical.

Again, Jesus refers to this event as a "vision".... I'm including a bunch of translations to show that some translate "what you have seen", and others "the vision"...



The "appearance" of Elijah and Moses was very brief, and absolutely completely different from Jesus' incarnation.

[JimL]

Jim, Jesus came down from Heaven, was born of a virgin, and walked this earth. I know you don't believe that, but it's the biblical record, which you are vainly attempting to argue.

Neither Moses nor Elijah (glad to see you back down from claiming Elijah was resurrected) "walked the earth", and Jesus even refers to the event as a "vision" - Matt 17:9.

Jesus was "transfigured", and it is in that condition that he and Moses and Elijah speak to one another. There is no claim that Elijah and Moses actually "touched down" on earth in the physical.

Again, Jesus refers to this event as a "vision".... I'm including a bunch of translations to show that some translate "what you have seen", and others "the vision"...



The "appearance" of Elijah and Moses was very brief, and absolutely completely different from Jesus' incarnation.

Elijah did come down from heaven and he did walk the earth according to the bible and in Jesus own words. "But I tell you, Elijah has come and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him!

[Cow Poke]

Elijah did come down from heaven and he did walk the earth according to the bible and in Jesus own words. "But I tell you, Elijah has come and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him!

Why do you keep dishonestly cutting off the words of John? He continues... "Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."