Originally posted by JimL
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostThis is a question of causality, not blame. The unintended consequences of a creator are still its creations. I created a mess this morning. It wasn't the plan, but it was certainly my mess. I caused it.
Intent is material if we're interested in judging the creation, and by implication, the creator, but I don't think we were going there. The question of whether a god I don't believe in created humans destined for a hell that I'm quite sure doesn't exist is purely academic for me. This is primarily a discussion of whether we can claim free will for the creations of an omniscient deity.
Philosopher David Bentley Hart has this to say about the word commonly translated "predestined":
He also casts some serious shade on the notion of eternal conscious torment, noting that αἰώνιος never has "eternal" as its root meaning, but can connote that when predicated of, i.e., God; the text will rather more easily bear the possibility of an indefinite period of torment which will either end in annihilation or a purifying of the tormented one resulting in that one being made acceptable to God. Ibid., 537-43.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod is omniscient because He is infinite and eternal. A finite and temporal entity cannot be omniscient without access to the infinite and eternal.
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Originally posted by mythas View PostI'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.
1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.
I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
If god made the Universe, shake and baked it, zipped it up and put it in the fridge, then ignored it, we would likely be pretty Free, bound by the perimeters of Existence.
If God interfered, it would heavily imply it wanted a certain outcome because in being omniscient, it would know the outcome before interfering.
Unless an omniscient entity is capable of surprising itself. If an omniscient entity could 'turn off' its omniscience(which why would it, unless its a burden-which would raise questions about its omnipotence) then that implies a triviality to our creation.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostGod being "omniscient" is an unsubstantiated claim. And you support this "unsubstantiated claim" by the bald assertion that therefore God needs to be "infinite and eternal", but NONE of these claims is supported. They are faith-based beliefs, nothing more.Last edited by 37818; 02-15-2018, 08:26 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by mythas View PostI'll start with two assumptions that I think most Christians can agree with.
1. God is Omniscient.He is all knowing of all things through all time. He is able to see ever chain of cause and effect through to its end.
2. God created the universe. My point doesn't depend on the mechanism of creation simply that God initiated it.
If these two assumptions hold then prior to God creating the universe he was able to know what would happen if he were to create that universe. He has able to see every global event, and every personal event that would occur if he were to go through with creating that particular universe. He would also have been able to consider other universes that he could have created. Ones with different fundamental laws of physics, ones where DNA strands operate differently, ones where the nature of peoples hearts are different, even ones where everything is identical to the current universe except that instead of having coffee this morning you had tea. An omniscient and omnipotent God had all of these options before him and yet he chose to create the universe we live in. Seeing as how he knew exactly what would happen if he were to create the world, and he had other options for worlds he could create wouldn't that make life one big simulation.
Doesn't this break the idea of free will. I am familiar with and am comfortable with many of the explanations of how there can be free will with an omniscient God (ie. knowing that someone will do something doesn't take away their choice to do that thing). However none of these explanations (that I can find) address the issue that if you know what someone will do if you create them, and you could also create them differently knowing what they would do in that case as well, then how does this creation have any choice in what they do. They are just the result of you picking to create that particular instance.
I am really struggling to resolve this idea in my head, and have been praying that I will come to peace with it, but I just can't let go of it.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAh, if there is no God (the uncaused existence not being the God), then what ever omniscience there might be, it is limited to omnipresence of all existence, and not any kind of conscious entity as we think a god would be.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostKnowledge is a product of intelligence. Any knowledge there is, whether of everything or of some things, is whatever is had by intelligent beings. No finite being can have all knowledge, and so if there is no God, then nothing is omniscient.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo thing is omnipresent.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by JimL View PostExistence is not a thing.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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