Originally posted by JimL
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou are essentially creating an identical universe with the identical limits, producing the identical problem. The people in your hypothetical universe cannot choose otherwise without rendering it NOT the universe you are arguing for. You haven't addressed the problem.
The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.Last edited by JonathanL; 01-26-2018, 01:03 AM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBecause the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.
The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBecause the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.
The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBecause the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThe same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostActually, I cannot, Chrawnus. That is a consequence of god's creative action - not the foreknowledge. God created the specific universe where my choices was X. I cannot choose "Y" because that is not the universe god created. I may feel I can freely choose - but I actually cannot.
It has nothing to do with omniscience, except in so far as God used that omniscience to make a creative choice. Gods choice of "what I would choose" is ontologically prior to my choice, and determines my choice. God chooses and creates the universe where I do Y. I can no longer do X, because that is not the universe god created.
No, his knowledge is temporally prior to your choice but logically AFTER your choice. His knowledge is dependent on your choice. If you choose different, he will know different. Logically it is no different than if someone in the future knows what decisions you made in the past. Let's say I know everything you did yesterday. Did I cause you to do it? No. Now suppose I have a time machine and go back to last week. I still have my same knowledge of what you did yesterday but it is now a week in the future to where I am. You will still do what you did, and I "pre-know" it but am not the cause of your actions. And if by some chance you change what you do, that would change what I know before I travel back in time and would change what I know after I travel back in time so I would still know what you will do.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo, his knowledge is temporally prior to your choice but logically AFTER your choice. His knowledge is dependent on your choice.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you choose different, he will know different. Logically it is no different than if someone in the future knows what decisions you made in the past. Let's say I know everything you did yesterday. Did I cause you to do it? No. Now suppose I have a time machine and go back to last week. I still have my same knowledge of what you did yesterday but it is now a week in the future to where I am. You will still do what you did, and I "pre-know" it but am not the cause of your actions. And if by some chance you change what you do, that would change what I know before I travel back in time and would change what I know after I travel back in time so I would still know what you will do.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSparko - you're not even making sense here. God needs to know what my choice WILL be before I even exist, so yes, it's temporally prior. So he has to have foreknowledge of the choices made in each universe. Then he selects the universe where I make that choice, thereby eliminating the possibility of all other universes. I cannot make a different choice - because that is a different universe which does not exist by god's creative action.
No - you're trying to do the slight of hand that lets you have your cake and eat it to - but it makes no sense. You're trying to have god create Universe X - but if I choose Y instead of X, god creates universe Y instead. It's a cheap magician's trick. The argument I outlined above is perfectly reasonable.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI am not even arguing about God creating specific universes here Carpe, Just the fact that foreknowledge of an event doesn't mean that there is no free will. In the example I gave you, I have foreknowledge of what you will do before you do it but that knowledge is entirely dependent on your actions. If you choose to do X, then I know X. If you choose to do Y, then I know Y. Your action logically is prior and determines my knowledge and not the other way around.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-26-2018, 09:30 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI am not even arguing about God creating specific universes here Carpe, Just the fact that foreknowledge of an event doesn't mean that there is no free will. In the example I gave you, I have foreknowledge of what you will do before you do it but that knowledge is entirely dependent on your actions. If you choose to do X, then I know X. If you choose to do Y, then I know Y. Your action logically is prior and determines my knowledge and not the other way around.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat is just dumb, dumb, dumb, Sparko, which of course has been explained to you over and over and over again for years now, but it never seems to seep in. It has to be a psychological thing with you people, the error of your explanation is to obvious for a properly functioning mind not to be able to see. If you actually look for the fault in your own argument, you'll probably find it!
Here I even made you a spreadsheet. It shows God's foreknowledge and Your Action
The foreknowledge is dependent on the action. Change the action and watch the foreknowledge change.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSorry Jim, but it is you who don't understand logic.
Here I even made you a spreadsheet. It shows God's foreknowledge and Your Action
The foreknowledge is dependent on the action. Change the action and watch the foreknowledge change.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharingThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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