Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

[JimL]

JimL, I know I will never convince you, they guy who thought that if you were on a distant planet and walked toward earth you would travel forward in time and if you walked away from Earth you would walk backwards in time. You have absolutely no concept of space and time, or physics. Your miss-statement of what I was saying above is proof of that.

Read up on the Block Universe and you may eventually figure out what I was trying to explain to you. Though, that was what, a decade ago, and you haven't figured it out yet!

JimL you are currently in the past of someone in the future, so guess what? according to their point of view everything you do is fixed and you can't change it.

Unless you're speaking of the Block universe, then the future does not exist Sparko, so I am not in the past of someone in the future. That's just silly talk.

[Sparko]

Read up on the Block Universe and you may eventually figure out what I was trying to explain to you. Though, that was what, a decade ago, and you haven't figured it out yet!

we were discussing relativity and time dilation not the block universe.

Unless you're speaking of the Block universe, then the future does not exist Sparko, so I am not in the past of someone in the future. That's just silly talk.

I already said I believe in the B-theory of time. And Einstein's theories and math seem to show that is what we have, a 4-dimensional space-time universe with three spatial dimensions and one time dimension. The past and future as just as real as the present. Whether you see events as open or fixed depends on where you are in the time dimension. Last week you viewed everything you did yesterday as open and free choices. Yet today you view everything you did yesterday as fixed and unchangeable. A year from now you will see what you do next week as fixed and unchangeable. Yet what you do will still be a free will choice. If this is a block universe, it is a recording of all of the free will choices all of us makes. It is complete from God's view. But not from ours.

[JimL]

we were discussing relativity and time dilation not the block universe.



I already said I believe in the B-theory of time. And Einstein's theories and math seem to show that is what we have, a 4-dimensional space-time universe with three spatial dimensions and one time dimension. The past and future as just as real as the present. Whether you see events as open or fixed depends on where you are in the time dimension. Last week you viewed everything you did yesterday as open and free choices. Yet today you view everything you did yesterday as fixed and unchangeable. A year from now you will see what you do next week as fixed and unchangeable. Yet what you do will still be a free will choice. If this is a block universe, it is a recording of all of the free will choices all of us makes. It is complete from God's view. But not from ours.

Nope, that's wrong. The Block universe, and the B-theory of time that goes along with it, are complete no matter ones perspective. If it's complete from one perspective, then it is complete period. It can't be both complete and not complete. Thusly, that it isn't complete from the perspective of one experiencing it from within, must needs be an illusion. If you believe in the B-theory of time, then you can't believe in free will, since the two notions are in contradiction to each other.

[Sparko]

Nope, that's wrong. The Block universe, and the B-theory of time that goes along with it, are complete no matter ones perspective. If it's complete from one perspective, then it is complete period. It can't be both complete and not complete. Thusly, that it isn't complete from the perspective of one experiencing it from within, must needs be an illusion. If you believe in the B-theory of time, then you can't believe in free will, since the two notions are in contradiction to each other.

JimL as others have told you numerous times:

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I have a recording of a birthday party. The tape is a 'block universe.' Everything that happened on that recording is fixed and cannot be changed, yet every word, every action on it was the result of free will.

[JimL]

JimL as others have told you numerous times:

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I have a recording of a birthday party. The tape is a 'block universe.' Everything that happened on that recording is fixed and cannot be changed, yet every word, every action on it was the result of free will.

Yes, and everything on that tape is a product of the past, not a view of the future. Damn Sparko, you're a smart guy, why is it you can't grasp this rather simple fact? If like your past, your future already exists a la the Block universe, then like your taped recording you can't alter it in any way. The Sparko in the beginning of the tape recording can't change the actions of the Sparko further on in the tape because it's all already there. Thats how the B-theory of time works, all of time exists, all events in time exist, past, present and future exist, your experience of passing through time is an illusion. Personally I'm not a believer in the B-theory, but it doesn't allow for free will as you seem to think it does.

[Tassman]

You are wrong.

We know the choices made in the past and they cannot be altered, yet they were genuinely free will choices. This is functionally equivalent to knowledge of our future free will choices that "can't be altered" as known by an even further future observer. No choice/action can be altered once made. That's how it works.

The knowledge is dependent ON the choices made, not the other way around.

Given that the omniscient creator knew what these choices would be even before we were created, at what point were these "free-will' choices made?

[carpedm9587]

Given that the omniscient creator knew what these choices would be even before we were created, at what point were these "free-will' choices made?

The argument that an omniscient creator choose to create the universe in which our "free-will" choices align with "his divine plan" is simply vaporizes the concept of free will. If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," then there is no freedom whatsoever - my choices were pre-determined by the choice of the creator to create this specific universe rather than another one. Free will becomes nothing more than an illusion, despite all of the attempts at "videotape" or "travel back in time" analogies. The position is simply unsustainable, IMO.

[Tassman]

The argument that an omniscient creator choose to create the universe in which our "free-will" choices align with "his divine plan" is simply vaporizes the concept of free will. If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," then there is no freedom whatsoever - my choices were pre-determined by the choice of the creator to create this specific universe rather than another one. Free will becomes nothing more than an illusion, despite all of the attempts at "videotape" or "travel back in time" analogies. The position is simply unsustainable, IMO.

Exactly! I share your opinion.

[37818]

Let's look at my examples:

For instance, God in his "full omniscience" can't know what a square circle looks like, or what it's like to possess tea and no tea at the same time and in the same sense...

Are you suggesting that God can defy logic? That doesn't make Him omnipotent, it makes Him impossible.

As to your second question, Joshua 24:15 is one of many verses that implies freewill.

Logic originates in God. It is God who defines that there are no finite square circles on a plan. Free will is not a Biblical term. But that good man without the knowledge of good and evil could choose what was wrong for man is professed to be in evidence (Genesis 3:22).

[Mountain Man]

Logic originates in God. It is God who defines that there are no finite square circles on a plan. Free will is not a Biblical term. But that good man without the knowledge of good and evil could choose what was wrong for man is professed to be in evidence (Genesis 3:22).

Are you suggesting that God is not bound by logic? That he could be both God and not God at the same time and in the same sense.

When you say that "freewill" is not a Biblical term, you're right in so far as the term "freewill" is never used in the Bible; however, the concept of freewill is implicitly if not explicitly implied all throughout scripture.

[Littlejoe]

Or is this just accommodating language? When in the garden God asked Adam where he was - are we suggesting that God really didn't know?

The short answer is No. Asking a known answer question has a much different function than a Rhetorical question or a not a question statement. This is like saying that we should treat Historical books of the bible the same way we treat the Poetry books. Their just different animals used for a different purpose.

[mythas]

The argument that an omniscient creator choose to create the universe in which our "free-will" choices align with "his divine plan" is simply vaporizes the concept of free will. If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," then there is no freedom whatsoever - my choices were pre-determined by the choice of the creator to create this specific universe rather than another one. Free will becomes nothing more than an illusion, despite all of the attempts at "videotape" or "travel back in time" analogies. The position is simply unsustainable, IMO.

Just wanted to say thanks carpedm9587. I feel like you are one of the few who is actually addressing my original point when I created this thread (There are a few others like LittleJoe and tabibito who have added useful things). I really appreciated your post on page 10 with the summary of the options available to resolve this question. I also appreciate your ability to stay on topic. A few people (sparko, mountainman et al.) in this thread created so much noise yelling off topic nonsense that it was hard to track the actual flow of ideas that were relevant to my question.

[MaxVel]

The argument that an omniscient creator choose to create the universe in which our "free-will" choices align with "his divine plan" is simply vaporizes the concept of free will. If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," then there is no freedom whatsoever - my choices were pre-determined by the choice of the creator to create this specific universe rather than another one. Free will becomes nothing more than an illusion, despite all of the attempts at "videotape" or "travel back in time" analogies. The position is simply unsustainable, IMO.

Hi Carpe - interesting discussion with Sparko. I don't see that there is an actual contradiction between "God perfectly knows that I will freely choose X" and "I have free will".

Above you've restated the issue as "If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," but again I don't see that that is a hard contradiction. The choices are still your choices, freely made. An alternative hypothetical universe where you made other choices would result in someone that is not you. A Carpe that likes to drink in dive bars, brawl with bikers and firebomb churches, say.

And if God is omniscient and all- good, then whatever universe He instantiates is the one with the best possible outcomes for the most people.

[carpedm9587]

Just wanted to say thanks carpedm9587. I feel like you are one of the few who is actually addressing my original point when I created this thread (There are a few others like LittleJoe and tabibito who have added useful things). I really appreciated your post on page 10 with the summary of the options available to resolve this question. I also appreciate your ability to stay on topic. A few people (sparko, mountainman et al.) in this thread created so much noise yelling off topic nonsense that it was hard to track the actual flow of ideas that were relevant to my question.

NP, mythas. I have long found this topic interesting. I'm not sure my list is exhaustive - but they are the options with which I am familiar.

[carpedm9587]

Hi Carpe - interesting discussion with Sparko. I don't see that there is an actual contradiction between "God perfectly knows that I will freely choose X" and "I have free will".

Above you've restated the issue as "If a universe was created on the basis of knowing which choices were "freely made," but again I don't see that that is a hard contradiction. The choices are still your choices, freely made. An alternative hypothetical universe where you made other choices would result in someone that is not you. A Carpe that likes to drink in dive bars, brawl with bikers and firebomb churches, say.

And if God is omniscient and all- good, then whatever universe He instantiates is the one with the best possible outcomes for the most people.

I cannot go there with you, Max. Let me see if I can express this another way (hopefully this will not yet again earn me a "moving the goal-posts" award).

The common defense of the position you outlined is "knowledge of action does not limit free will." I 100% agree with that assessment: knowledge (knowing) by a third party cannot limit acting. To propose that is absurd (to me, anyway). But I can hold THAT position AND argue that my free will has been constrained, because it is not the knowledge that is contraining my will. It is the creating!

If we assume an all-knowing, allpowerful god, who can know all possible universes, when this god chooses to create specific universe X because of the choices that will be made by its members in this particular universe, this god is using their fore-knowledge to guide action (selecting the universe to create and creating it). That action on the part of this god is what is constraining my will. That choice of which universe to create, limits my choices to the ones this god fore-knew I would make. I am no longer a truly free-will actor, I am merely reading my lines as they were fore-known and going through my choreography as it was fore-known. I am not aware of this, of course. I feel perfectly free. I feel like I am choosing. But I am not.

Make sense?

(It just strikes me that this is amazingly similar to the suggestion that we all occupy a virtual-world simulation, unaware of it from the inside because we are part of it, which has some elements of Descartes philosophical arguments to it, IIRC).