Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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To what extent can ethics be anchored in reason?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostPablo Escobar was killed at the age of 44 MM. Was it in his best interests?
So which is better, to live like a king and die at 44, or live like a pauper and die at 100?
Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-03-2017, 07:28 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostYour objection assumes that whatever someone believes is in their own best interest actually is in their own best interest. I don't think that assumption is justified.Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-03-2017, 07:42 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostWe can't be infallibly certain about anything, but that is no excuse for shirking our responsibility for exercising our judgment to the best of our ability. Sometimes our judgment will be wrong, and we have to live with that. The only way to never do anything wrong is to never do anything, and even that won't work when inaction itself is the wrong option.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHe lived like a king until then, so who's to say?
So which is better, to live like a king and die at 44, or live like a pauper and die at 100?
[cite=Can We Be Good Without God?]
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHeavy is the head that wears the crown. I know people who live on the street that are happier than some very wealthy people that I also know, so to equate super material wealth with happiness is wrong headed.
First of all Dostoyevsky never said that, not those words, but a similar sentiment was mouthed by Ivan Karamazov, a character in his novel. But all things are are not permitted, and the reason they are not permitted is because we live in community and there are consequences to society for ones unsocial or immoral behavior and the violator thereof, the thief, will always have to be on guard, the murderer will always need fear for his own life etc etc.
You say that people who live immorally will always have to be vigilant, but living morally doesn't make one impervious or immune to the evils of society, so what does it matter? An innocent person living in a rough neighborhood has as much reason to fear for her life as a murderer.
But you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?
Ecclesiastes 9:2, "It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath."Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostTo pretend that material wealth and power can't bring happiness is similarly naive. As one person famously said, "I've been rich and miserable, and I've been poor and miserable, and I much prefer being rich and miserable."
You say that people who live immorally will always have to be vigilant, but living morally doesn't make one impervious or immune to the evils of society, so what does it matter? An innocent person living in a rough neighborhood has as much reason to fear for her life as a murderer.
But you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?
Ecclesiastes 9:2, "It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath."Last edited by JimL; 11-03-2017, 12:25 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe accountability and the rewards of moral behavior in society are about the lives of the living not about the dead.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostBut you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostI'm interested in turning the question around. What is the basis of ethics in non-theistic systems? Preference? Popularity?
Looks very much like they can't, so no grounding. So yes, preference or popularity for them!Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostThen you're assuming your conclusion and thus presenting a circular argument.
Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostBecause there are always consequences, whether or not there is accountability.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI didn't present an argument at all, I asked a question, one which you still haven't answered.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View Postimmoral behavior can sometimes have good consequences, or the bad consequences can be mitigated or avoided, or in other cases, the negative consequences are outweighed by the benefits
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