Originally posted by carpedm9587
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Morality or Obedience?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell I don't know how quantum mechanics could lead to the freedom of the will. Unpredictability does not necessarily lead to conscious freedom of thoughts and acts.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI give up, Seer. You constantly claiming it is unfalsifiable in the face of a clear methodology for falsification is unsurmountable. It's like trying to tell someone how to open a car door and having them continuously deny the car that is right in front of them actually exists.
I leave it to you. The discussion has ceased to be rational.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't know how it does either. What I do know is that strict determinism has been shown, at least in a couple places, to not be true. I know that I experience myself as having the freedom to choose and the constrained freedom to act on those choices. How that is possible falls in my "I don't" know bucket. As you well know, I don't replace "I don't know" with "god did it" just to make myself feel better. When I don't know - I don't know.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...out-free-will/Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou do know that science is moving away from the idea of free will - correct? But you believe in freedom of the will because of your experience! Interesting...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...out-free-will/
Also, science doesn't move as a monolith. Sure there are determinists out there but there are also people who are skeptical of the strict determinism that would negate free will.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou do know that science is moving away from the idea of free will - correct? But you believe in freedom of the will because of your experience! Interesting...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...out-free-will/
You also (again) seem to fall prey to binary thinking. There is little doubt in my mind that some of our thoughts/actions are more deterministic, and others are more free-will - just as some of our actions/choices are instinctual and others are reasoned. It's not all one or all the other.
HOW that all works, I don't know. As for belief being based on experience - name ONE belief you hold that is not grounded, in any way, in an experience in your life.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI would not pay attention to Scientific American for ideas of where science is going. I know that the importance of my work has been overstated when translated to to media outlets. It was an eye opening experience and has lead me to be skeptical of all popular science articles. Not to mention that there are alternate interpretations of the data that would not negate free will.
Also, science doesn't move as a monolith. Sure there are determinists out there but there are also people who are skeptical of the strict determinism that would negate free will.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have read the various articles out there about this. We're at the very early stages of understanding how all of this works, so definitive clams are simply pre-mature. And popular periodicals are not exactly peer-reviewed sources. I'm also leery about statements that treat all of science as if it is one, monolithc thing that moves in unison.
You also (again) seem to fall prey to binary thinking. There is little doubt in my mind that some of our thoughts/actions are more deterministic, and others are more free-will - just as some of our actions/choices are instinctual and others are reasoned. It's not all one or all the other.
HOW that all works, I don't know. As for belief being based on experience - name ONE belief you hold that is not grounded, in any way, in an experience in your life.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, first, you can not falsify the claim (any trait/aspect of my person is a result of the evolutionary process) and I would add ONLY result of the evolutionary process - if you can falsify it please do. Second, this was a response Tass's broad brush claim that belief in a God or the divine is only the result of evolutionary pressures. That is a metaphysical claim, not a scientific one - and again, if you can not falsify a theory how is it science?
For the rest, the traits we show are either directly a result of evolution, or are tangentially related to them based on genetics (i.e., some traits can "carry along" in a species because they are closely associated with a beneficial trait on the same DNA strand). Every single part of our being is coded for by our genes, and genes are manipulated through reproduction, mutation, and the force of natural selection. Since no part of our body is NOT governed by genetics (and we now have the entire genome sequenced), then all aspects of our being are related to thus process. You falsify the claim quite easily: find a part of the human body that is not coded for by our genome. Such a trait cannot be the product of an evolutionary process.
If you are making spiritual claims about aspects of our being - those are nonscientific and cannot be assessed or falsified scientifically.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell it is not just that article, there is the Libet experiment and the numerous follow ons reaching the same conclusions. I mean if you take the ghost out of the machine what do you left but the machine? I do BTW believe in free will despite what science may conclude since I am not a materialist.Last edited by element771; 03-13-2018, 09:33 AM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMy response was specific to falsifying the claim that "a moral compass provides survival advantages."
For the rest, the traits we show are either directly a result of evolution, or are tangentially related to them based on genetics (i.e., some traits can "carry along" in a species because they are closely associated with a beneficial trait on the same DNA strand). Every single part of our being is coded for by our genes, and genes are manipulated through reproduction, mutation, and the force of natural selection. Since no part of our body is NOT governed by genetics (and we now have the entire genome sequenced), then all aspects of our being are related to thus process. You falsify the claim quite easily: find a part of the human body that is not coded for by our genome. Such a trait cannot be the product of an evolutionary process.
If you are making spiritual claims about aspects of our being - those are nonscientific and cannot be assessed or falsified scientifically.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by element771 View PostRight but there are other interpretations of the Libet experiment that don't negate free will. There are several lectures by neuroscientists on the Faraday Institute website that cover this topic. Even Libet himself didn't believe that it negated free will.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt is where this is going element, towards determinism. As you know there have been follow up experiments that are even more stark than Libet's. Not that this is settled science.
An alternative view to Libet denying free will...
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/E2904
Which studies are you referring to specifically?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes - if the metric is "increases survival value," that would follow.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI don't agree. We don't really know where this is going. We still don't know how quantum effects, which are inherently indeterministic, affect the brain and neuroscience.
An alternative view to Libet denying free will...
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/E2904
Which studies are you referring to specifically?
https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080....2008.751.htmlAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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