Morality or Obedience?

[Doug Shaver]

Of course I hold to the divine command theory, except God's moral law is not arbitrary - as some seem to suggest.

If it is not arbitrary, then he has a reason to prohibit certain behaviors. Have you any idea what his reason is?

[seer]

If it is not arbitrary, then he has a reason to prohibit certain behaviors. Have you any idea what his reason is?

No Doug, his moral nature is immutable. If he has a reason it is because a command or law conforms to that unchangeable moral nature, aided by His omniscience. So arbitrariness does not apply. Moral questions must stop somewhere Doug. God knows what is right, always knew what is right, because He is righteous.

[Doug Shaver]

No Doug, his moral nature is immutable. If he has a reason it is because a command or law conforms to that unchangeable moral nature, aided by His omniscience. So arbitrariness does not apply. Moral questions must stop somewhere Doug. God knows what is right, always knew what is right, because He is righteous.

So the difference between right and wrong is known to God but not known to us? All we can know is whether God allows or forbids certain behaviors?

[seer]

So the difference between right and wrong is known to God but not known to us? All we can know is whether God allows or forbids certain behaviors?

What is known to God is revealed to us, through Revelation, and to a lesser degree through our conscience, moral intuition, as we are created in His image.

[Doug Shaver]

What is known to God is revealed to us, through Revelation, and to a lesser degree through our conscience, moral intuition, as we are created in His image.

What do you think God has revealed about the difference between right and wrong?

[seer]

What do you think God has revealed about the difference between right and wrong?

I'm not sure what you mean. But I would say that God God reveals what He, by nature, finds right and wrong.

[JimL]

Of course I hold to the divine command theory, except God's moral law is not arbitrary - as some seem to suggest.

From "The Pixie's post" in the other thread seer, God says-Exodus21:20-21, that a man can beat his slave to near death so long as the slave recovers in a few days. Do you believe that such an act is a moral act or an immoral act?

[JimL]

Well Jim, I go by Revelation, that God can not change, that He can not lie, that by nature He is loving, just, righteous, and good.

And you believe that not only is slavery moral, but that the slave owner is behaving morally if he should beat his slave near to death.

[seer]

And you believe that not only is slavery moral, but that the slave owner is behaving morally if he should beat his slave near to death.

Jim, in your world, nothing, slavery, beating slaves or killing them is ultimately wrong or immoral.

[JimL]

Jim, in your world, nothing, slavery, beating slaves or killing them is ultimately wrong or immoral.

Not true seer, but that's besides the point that you avoided addressing anyway. 1) Do you believe that slavery is moral, and 2) do you believe that beating ones slave to near death would be a moral or an immoral act?

[Tassman]

Jim, in your world, nothing, slavery, beating slaves or killing them is ultimately wrong or immoral.

The lack of a basis for morality without your imaginary god is a lie, which you consistently perpetuate. This is demonstrably not the case. We are simply naturally evolved biological organisms existing in an amoral material environment; if there is any goodness or caring to be done we are the ones to do it. The God of Moses cares very little about goodness or caring when it comes to slaves.

[Doug Shaver]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean to ask what you believe distinguishes good behavior from bad behavior. What particular characteristic of the behavior makes it good or bad, other than the mere fact that God commands it or forbids it?

[seer]

Not true seer, but that's besides the point that you avoided addressing anyway. 1) Do you believe that slavery is moral, and 2) do you believe that beating ones slave to near death would be a moral or an immoral act?

Jim, I do not think every form of slavery is immoral. Man Stealing, which southern slavery was based on, is a sin in Scripture. But if I willingly sold myself into slavery to save myself and family from starving then that would be a good thing. And Jim, the bible never says you SHOULD beat your slave. And what is not true Jim - in your world, nothing, slavery, beating slaves or killing them is ultimately wrong or immoral. It is all relative.

[seer]

I mean to ask what you believe distinguishes good behavior from bad behavior. What particular characteristic of the behavior makes it good or bad, other than the mere fact that God commands it or forbids it?

Why would I need any other reason besides God's commanding it or prohibiting it? I will say that the teachings of Christ do resonate with me. The love of my fellow man, forgiving others, the golden rule, etc...But really Doug, what do you have? I mean you hold to Consequentialism and as we discussed you could never know which behaviors are good or bad since you can not know the long term consequences of any act.

[37818]

Well if one believes what the Bible teaches regarding man knowing right and wrong. The only thing God revealed to man was in the garden where God placed him. (Later gave men Law through Noah[Genesis 9] and then Moses). In the garden God told the man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). Man acquired the knowledge of right and wrong by disobeying that command. And the knowledge of good and evil was God's knowledge (Genesis 3:22). God being infinite good cannot be affected by evil and evil being part of God's good creation. Man while created by God to be good was nevertheless finite. And the knowledge of evil would contaminate good man to be sinful do to the knowledge of evil (Genesis 3:7). That is that story.