Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Morality or Obedience?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Of course it is perfectly subjective when deciding right or wrong. Yes objectively we have innate desires, but those also include cruelty, dominance, greed, lust, etc... And that is where the absurdity comes in. One culture believes that wife rape is legitimate for instance, another culture believes that it is morally wrong. Neither is right or wrong, it would be like saying that one culture believes that 2+2=4, and another that 2+2=5. That would make mathematics absurd. Just as subjectivism makes ethics absurd.
And I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights since the majority of countries have not signed on to it. It is not, in any sense, universal.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNice come back! For someone of your mental accume that is...
If you did - "mental acumen" would be a tad redundant...
And there is something oddly ironic about that post...
(P.S. I hope you know that, as I do with CP, I intend this in a spirit of play, not animosity.)The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUmm...I feel like CP here... I think you mean "acumen?"
If you did - "mental acumen" would be a tad redundant...
And there is something oddly ironic about that post...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostDon't even jump on me for misspelling Homer, that would be the pot calling the kettle black!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course it is perfectly subjective when deciding right or wrong. Yes objectively we have innate desires, but those also include cruelty, dominance, greed, lust, etc... And that is where the absurdity comes in. One culture believes that wife rape is legitimate for instance, another culture believes that it is morally wrong. Neither is right or wrong, it would be like saying that one culture believes that 2+2=4, and another that 2+2=5. That would make mathematics absurd. Just as subjectivism makes ethics absurd.Last edited by JimL; 03-02-2018, 12:13 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIt's not that neither moral belief or behavior is right or wrong, it's that neither moral belief or behavior is objectively right or wrong. I know, that's a sticking point for you. But whatever moral behaviors are in our best interests are good, i.e. whatever moral behaviors that are in the best interests of human beings together with human society as a whole are good. Such a moral system needn't be objectively grounded in an external source.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Jim, good being what is best for society as a whole is merely your opinion. This is exactly why your position is absurd. It is as absurd as saying that math sums are subjective.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell, that's where we disagree and why I said that I understand that my perspective is a sticking point for you. In my opinion moral rules that best serve society as a whole, and so too the best interests of individual members, best serve us whether we subjectively agree that they do or not. Opinions can of course be wrong, so you may have the opinion that (wife rape) is in the best interests of society as well as in the best interests of yourself and family, and I may be of the opposite opinion, but only one of us is correct as to which behavior is actually in the best interests of ourselves and the society we belong to. Opinion only means we don't know with certainty, it doesn't mean there is no certainty.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIn my opinion moral rules that best serve society as a whole, and so too the best interests of individual members, best serve us whether we subjectively agree that they do or not.
How do you counter that?
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Jim, good being what is best for society as a whole is merely your opinion. This is exactly why your position is absurd. It is as absurd as saying that math sums are subjective.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostIn my opinion moral rules that best serve the most capable individuals, and are not concerned with lesser individuals, best serve us whether we subjectively agree that they do or not.
How do you counter that?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd, of course, we've already discussed why that argument fails...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, no it didn't. If there were no objectively right answers for mathematics, math would not be rational. Why should we think that ethical questions with no objectively right answers would be any less irrational?
It would be like me randomly deciding that a turtle is like a car because I want to prove to you that turtles have trunks. But I chose my analog specifically because it has a trunk - without showing that it was like a turtle in any other way. The entire analogy fails as a consequence.
I asked you to show me how you could show me that math and morality were analogous in any other way - and you had no answer.
Here - let me use your analogy the way you are using it:
- Legal systems are irrational - they have no universal/absolute basis. It's like mathematics - without an absolute basis - mathematics would be irrational. Since legal systems also lack an absolute basis - they are irrational.
- Philosophical systems are irrational - they have no universal/absolute basis. They're like mathematics - without an absolute basis - mathematics would be irrational. Since philosophical systems also lack an absolute basis - they are irrational.
- Monetary systems are irrational - they have no universal/absolute basis. It's like mathematics - without an absolute basis - mathematics would be irrational. Since monetary systems also lack an absolute basis - they are irrational.
- Languages are irrational - they have no universal/absolute basis. It's like mathematics - without an absolute basis - mathematics would be irrational. Since language systems also lack an absolute basis - they are irrational.
I suspect you would find few people who would agree that most of these "systems" are "irrational." They are subjective, and relative to the societies that create them. They are not irrational.Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-02-2018, 04:38 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are still missing the point, it is still your opinion that what best serves society is a moral good. Opinion and nothing else. Which as I explained reduces ethics to absurdity.
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