Free will defense?

[Sparko]

. . . and all humans sin.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+6&version=NIV

[shunyadragon]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+6&version=NIV

. . . and by the facts of human nature and history all humans remain sinners.

[lee_merrill]

. . . and by the facts of human nature and history all humans remain sinners.

So then to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? I would agree, I would only insist that people apart from Christ can do nothing but sin.

"... and whatever is not from faith is sin." (Ro 14:23)

Blessings,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

So then to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? I would agree, I would only insist that people apart from Christ can do nothing but sin.

"... and whatever is not from faith is sin." (Ro 14:23)

Blessings,
Lee

I disagree. virtually all people in history from all religions, and faiths and even those who do not believe anything sin, good things, great things, love, sin, and do evil stuff. That is the facts of life. There is no distinct difference between the behavior of believers from different religions.

[lee_merrill]

I disagree. virtually all people in history from all religions, and faiths and even those who do not believe anything sin, good things, great things, love, sin, and do evil stuff. That is the facts of life. There is no distinct difference between the behavior of believers from different religions.

I started another thread for this discussion...

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

. . . and by the facts of human nature and history all humans remain sinners.

Again, thanks Captain Obvious. But we are no longer slaves to sin, and we will be forgiven (Christians that is)

[37818]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Jesus said to believe his testimony about himself, or believe the works he performed, two intellectual paths that lead to the same destination.

What is it one must believe about Jesus' testimony or His works that lead to the same destination? And that destination is what and why from believing each of those two things?

[shunyadragon]

Again, thanks Captain Obvious. But we are no longer slaves to sin, and we will be forgiven (Christians that is)

This was not the issue concerning sin and Free Will defense that lee_merrill originally proposed.

[37818]

Is there any way for me to know what God's way is except for some man to tell me?

Yes. From God Himself. Know that God has used men to both write and speak His words.

The Apostle Paul on that matter wrote: ". . . For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. . . ." Letter to the church of Thessalonica. (1 Thessalonians 2:13.)

The Apostle John wrote, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. . . ." (1 John 5:9.)

Jesus is cited by John to have argued, ". . . My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. . . ." (John 7:16-17.)

[Mountain Man]

Yes. From God Himself. Know that God has used men to both write and speak His words.

The Apostle Paul on that matter wrote: ". . . For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. . . ." Letter to the church of Thessalonica. (1 Thessalonians 2:13.)

The Apostle John wrote, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. . . ." (1 John 5:9.)

Jesus is cited by John to have argued, ". . . My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. . . ." (John 7:16-17.)

Doug's response is probably going to be "But those are just the claims of men. How do I know they're telling the truth?"

Of course you could say the same thing about any piece of knowledge for which you do not have first-hand experience, but skeptics seem to think this is a problem only when it comes to Christianity.

[37818]

Doug's response is probably going to be "But those are just the claims of men. How do I know they're telling the truth?"

Of course you could say the same thing about any piece of knowledge for which you do not have first-hand experience, but skeptics seem to think this is a problem only when it comes to Christianity.

So what is your understanding of John 7:17? ". . . If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. . . ."

[Mountain Man]

So what is your understanding of John 7:17? ". . . If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. . . ."

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just speculating what Doug's reply is going to be. His question was a "sucker bet" from the beginning since he can idly dismiss any response simply by saying, "Those are just the claims of men. How do I know they're telling the truth?" At the end of the day, it's a lazy excuse not believe rather than a valid reason.

[37818]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just speculating what Doug's reply is going to be. His question was a "sucker bet" from the beginning since he can idly dismiss any response simply by saying, "Those are just the claims of men. How do I know they're telling the truth?" At the end of the day, it's a lazy excuse not believe rather than a valid reason.

The issue is one of either those references are in fact the word of God. In which John 7:17 like gravity the one doing such would then know for himself. Or as from the athistic view - and there not being really any God. There would be no such affect. And besides that, one cannot do what one does not understand. Nor act on what one cannot honestly believe.

[Adrift]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just speculating what Doug's reply is going to be. His question was a "sucker bet" from the beginning since he can idly dismiss any response simply by saying, "Those are just the claims of men. How do I know they're telling the truth?" At the end of the day, it's a lazy excuse not believe rather than a valid reason.

Pretty sure 37818 is a presuppositionalist, so you may end up talking past one another.

[Mountain Man]

Pretty sure 37818 is a presuppositionalist, so you may end up talking past one another.

Ah...