Originally posted by rogue06
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Gotta give credit where credit is due - she did lead me to the realisation that there is nothing wrong with Luke's nativity account."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Gotta give credit where credit is due - she did lead me to the realisation that there is nothing wrong with Luke's nativity account.Last edited by Diogenes; 06-01-2024, 10:50 AM.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI responded to you because you suggested that his scholarship was definitive.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI suggest that you read more carefully,
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Postas it should be clear that I was not taking issue with his translation despite your repeated attempts to make it about that.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostFurther, I note that the link clearly states that the work cited was published in 1926, which is not in the 1940s.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLastly, you're the one who suggested that his scholarship was definitive.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post.
More like amused. Reading church history is a significant reason why I became Orthodox - and I did not make the transition lightly.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIf you don't like grossly over-simplified comments, then I suggest you stop writing them yourself.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm well aware of such, which is why I understand that you're attempting to grossly over-complicate things into a hopeless muddle.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWe know quite enough about the historical situation to understand the "power struggles... and different factions" from various angles and write church histories."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostCiting an anonymous poster on a small website as your authority?
I do not consider our mutual friend to be an authority on anything."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAll I did was link to the first place that I ran across which provided an online copy of Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History
However, I am sure that our friend is highly trained in ancient palaeography and has also read all of Kirsopp Lake's works. [N.B. In case you missed it that was sarcasm.]"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I attempted to explain the actual historical situation to you. My efforts fell on stony ground.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The smelly mess you left on the stony ground of the stable floor got shifted to the bases of some fruit trees."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
As I recall you labour under the delusion that Quirinius was twice Legate of Syria and no evidence from the known historical sources has been able to dissuade you.
Quirinius was ηγεμονευω (general, not governor) over the troops engaged against the Homonadenses in Cilicia from 12 or 11 BCE until about 2 or 1 BCE. With Cilicia having been annexed to Syria in 27BCE, that made him ηγεμονευω (of the troops) of Syria. The first census conducted during Quirinius' time as ηγεμων of Syria was the census that concluded in 8BCE - as is recorded on the Res Gestae Divi Augusti monuments. Luke states that the census was the first conducted during Quirinius' time as ηγεμων, but he does not state that Quirinius had charge over conducting that census. At least two later Christian authors referred to the census records of Saturninus (who was governor of Syria in 8BCE) as being proof of Christian claims about the "Holy Family." Those authors were not guided to their conclusions by Biblical records, which make no mention of Saturninus. Census records were matters of public record, and archived in the Temple of Saturn. Those records and the temple itself were destroyed by fire 50 years after the second of the authors wrote of their existence.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
You remember wrong.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostQuirinius was ηγεμονευω (general, not governor) over the troops engaged against the Homonadenses in Cilicia from 12 or 11 BCE until about 2 or 1 BCE. ,
Originally posted by tabibito View PostWith Cilicia having been annexed to Syria in 27BCE
Originally posted by tabibito View Postthat made him ηγεμονευω (of the troops) of Syria.
In 6 CE Augustus appointed Quirinius as the Consular Governor of Syria, an Imperial province garrisoned by more than one legion, hence his official title was Legatus Augusti Pro Praetore
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe first census conducted during Quirinius' time as ηγεμων of Syria was the census that concluded in 8BCE - as is recorded on the Res Gestae Divi Augusti monuments.
Again, as has previously been pointed out to you,, from the late years of the Republic the census of Roman citizens had lost its original significance, since by then they, that is the whole of Italy and colonies with Ius Italicum no longer paid direct taxes, nor were they liable to regular and universal conscription. The census of 8 BCE was with regard to the religious ceremonies connected with it. It was not for the purpose of levying taxes.
However, provincial censuses were primarily for taxation purposes.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostLuke states that the census was the first conducted during Quirinius' time as ηγεμων, but he does not state that Quirinius had charge over conducting that census. At least two later Christian authors referred to the census records of Saturninus (who was governor of Syria in 8BCE) as being proof of Christian claims about the "Holy Family."
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThose authors were not guided to their conclusions by Biblical records, which make no mention of Saturninus. Census records were matters of public record, and archived in the Temple of Saturn. Those records and the temple itself were destroyed by fire 50 years after the second of the authors wrote of their existence.
However, you will continue to believe what you wish to believe regardless of any known historical evidence that is put to you; and so there is an end to it.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostBull scat. You never note the biases of the various skeptics and critics you employ, but eagerly handwave off as hopelessly biased anything an academic might write if they happen to be a Christian"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostQuirinius was made Consul in 12 BCE.
Yet again, you need to remember that Roman career paths followed a set pattern.
Not all of it, some remained for a period under client kings.
As has been pointed out to you in past exchanges on this topic ήγεμων as used by the author of Luke to describe Roman Legates, Procurators, and Proconsuls is a general term that has a military connation.
Furthermore, the Roman military used Latin.
In 6 CE Augustus appointed Quirinius as the Consular Governor of Syria, an Imperial province garrisoned by more than one legion, hence his official title was Legatus Augusti Pro Praetore
No it was not.
Again, as has previously been pointed out to you,, from the late years of the Republic the census of Roman citizens had lost its original significance, since by then they, that is the whole of Italy and colonies with Ius Italicum no longer paid direct taxes, nor were they liable to regular and universal conscription. The census of 8 BCE was with regard to the religious ceremonies connected with it. It was not for the purpose of levying taxes.
However, provincial censuses were primarily for taxation purposes.Judaea had not been a province.
Taxation was exacted in kind (ie by a levy on goods) ... 6CE saw the introduction of taxation payments in cash, which led to a lot of resentment.
The primary purpose of a Roman census was the same as it is today - keeping track of population and property statistics, as is shown by Augustus' opportunity to write up (with his own hand even) the population count and disposition of resources in the empire, its provinces, and its client kingdoms. None of which would have been possible without a census - it was a necessary precursor to a lustration; as necessary as the passover sacrifice is to the meal.
Justin and Tertullian are writing long after the events and with a tendentious purpose.
As I also noted to you in past exchanges on this topic neither would have had access to Imperial records. This was not the Australian National Archives.
However, you will continue to believe what you wish to believe regardless of any known historical evidence that is put to you; and so there is an end to it.Last edited by tabibito; 06-02-2024, 07:49 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Correct.
With enough exceptions to make it a general rule rather than a set procedure.
Quirinius and the legion(s) under his command would certainly not have been considered to be stationed in a client kingdom.
Indeed - and of consuls as well, unless Quirinius was not a consul. The word applies to those posts, whether or not the people concerned were actually governors; they might, for example, have been members of a governing body. However, the occasions when any author would have cause to refer to a person as ηγεμων unless that person was a governor would have been few. In wartime, a consul held an office roughly equivalent to that of a brigadier. In peacetime, the duties of the office were administrative, legislative, and judicial: Imperial Rome that is, Republican Rome was not quite the same. So - in Luke's eleven uses of ηγεμων, the use of the term to almost exclusively denote governorship is expected. In his position as legate from 12BCE, Quirinius the consul was not a governor (one exception to Luke's general pattern.) In the statement "you will be brought before kings and governors," the term might refer as easily to magistrates as to governors, a possible second exception.
Luke was not using Latin - he used the Greek equivalents of the Latin words.
Augustus appointed someone who had previously been a consul (but not a governor) to a position as governor.
Prior to 6CEJudaea had not been a province.
Taxation was exacted in kind (ie by a levy on goods) ... 6CE saw the introduction of taxation payments in cash, which led to a lot of resentment.
The primary purpose of a Roman census was the same as it is today - keeping track of population and property statistics, as is shown by Augustus' opportunity to write up (with his own hand even) the population count and disposition of resources in the empire, its provinces, and its client kingdoms.
A subjective assessment if ever there was one, and even if it were correct, it would not point to falsehoods on their part.
Then as now: wrong. Census information was a matter of public record, seemingly nailed to the walls of temples in the relevant municipia (a certain ambiguity is present in the account), and (without ambiguity) archived in the temple of Saturn as matters of public record.
Available evidence suggests that your understanding of the relevant subject is deficient."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The failure to ask "Why did the author make this particular claim?" and seeking the answers is a necessary component of critical thinking, as are reading comprehension exercises. With regard to Christian precepts, it seems that you fail to do either.Last edited by tabibito; 06-02-2024, 09:24 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Is that a demonstration of your capacity for critical thinking?
The failure to ask "Why did the author make this particular claim?" and seeking the answers is a necessary component of critical thinking, as are reading comprehension exercises. With regard to Christian precepts, it seems that you fail to do either.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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