Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Mark’s Ending
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYour problems with comprehension skills have been commented upon in the past.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Faber View PostOne theory is that the last page (or if a scroll, the last column of text) was somehow torn off or lost. I remember a college teacher's comment about the last two words of Mark 16:8, "ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ". The conjunction γὰρ is unique in that it appears as the second word in the second clause, rather than between the two clauses. But in the case of Mark 16:8, the conjunction γὰρ winds up being the last word in the sentence, a rather awkward ending, suggesting that the rest of the clause which was to follow had somehow disappeared. The sentence should have continued by stating what it was that they feared.
But I hesitate to think that a page of divinely inspired scripture somehow got lost.
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Faber View PostOne theory is that the last page (or if a scroll, the last column of text) was somehow torn off or lost. I remember a college teacher's comment about the last two words of Mark 16:8, "ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ". The conjunction γὰρ is unique in that it appears as the second word in the second clause, rather than between the two clauses. But in the case of Mark 16:8, the conjunction γὰρ winds up being the last word in the sentence, a rather awkward ending, suggesting that the rest of the clause which was to follow had somehow disappeared. The sentence should have continued by stating what it was that they feared.
But I hesitate to think that a page of divinely inspired scripture somehow got lost."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Remember this in response to my posting the photograph?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostPerhaps you should show where I first said that we shouldn't judge a person on their looks and then in the next sentence proceed to do exactly that. Oh, wait. That wasn't me. That was you."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
IIRC, in his commentary on Mark's Gospel, Witherington rather blithely remarks that the actual ending was lost early.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
The most interesting thing to me about the ending of Mark's gospel is that it should put to rest any skeptical objections that the Biblical manuscripts were poorly preserved throughout the centuries. In fact, they were so well preserved, and we have such an abundance of original manuscripts available to us today, that we know for a fact the ending of Mark was not the original! That's testament to the high degree of accuracy with which scholars have been able to reconstruct the original texts.
As for the ending of Mark, neither Clement of Alexandria [died c. 215 CE] nor Origen [died c. 253 CE] show any knowledge of verses nine through twenty in chapter sixteen. Furthermore, some of the earliest MSS including Siniaticus and Vaticanus both of which are dated to the fourth century, end at verse eight."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I have no idea from where you got that notion. There is not a single complete original MS for any of the gospel texts. The earliest surviving examples are papyrus fragments and scraps. And none of those is dated to earlier than the second century CE.
As for the ending of Mark, neither Clement of Alexandria [died c. 215 CE] nor Origen [died c. 253 CE] show any knowledge of verses nine through twenty in chapter sixteen. Furthermore, some of the earliest MSS including Siniaticus and Vaticanus both of which are dated to the fourth century, end at verse eight.
The popular idea is that textual criticism has been able to recover the NT text with 99% accuracy. That's a total of three pages in your average Bible without study notes being in question. Textual critics Westcott and Hort asserted [Hunt.IntNT, 13] that the parts of the NT "still subject to doubt can hardly amount to more than a thousandth part" of the NT - which would be less than a third of a page.
Generally, however, it seems that very few scholars in this field are willing to be so bold. Most scholars in this field seem to settle for vague phrases, ranging from speaking of the "retreating mirage" of the original text to Comfort's assurance that "there are several manuscripts that are quite accurate copies of the original text."[Comf.TNT, 29] Scholars outside the field are more bold; France asserts that "among the textual variants in the gospels there are only two which throw doubt on more than a verse or two of the traditional text" - the ending of Mark and the adultery story in John [Franc.EvJ, 135-6], with the other variants bearing only on details of sentimental value.
[...]
Is any matter of the Christian faith affected by any variant reading?
This is the most important issue for the average believer, and the good news is this: No doctrine of Christianity is in the least dependent on ANY textual variant.
A major study of this issue has been performed by Ehrman [Ehr.OxC], who locates several orthodox-oriented corruptions of the NT text that were designed to halt illicit interpretations of verses by heretics. We shall take a special look at his study at the end of this section.
Objection: The later church conspired to eliminate discrepancies and made purposeful changes to the text of the NT.
We will look at this matter more closely when dealing with Ehrman's work; for the moment, let it only be said that textual conspiracies such as are often suggested would be practically impossible - there is no way that the church could have eliminated ALL known readings of a given text.
Beyond that, what is the direct evidence and data for textual corruption? 95% of the errors found in the NT text are recognized as unintentional [Patz.MNT, 138]. This includes confusion of similar letters, repetition of words or sentences, and just plain bad copying.
The remaining 5% of errors includes revised spelling and grammar, harmonization of similar passages, elimination of textual difficulties, and, indeed, theological or doctrinal changes. However, let it not be said that there was some systematic or even informal conspiracy to change the NT text.
Also working against any idea that some important text was lost or added is evidence that textual criticism was already in process as early as the second and third century! Origen complains of negligence and audacity by scribes; Jerome takes note of various scribal errors, and so on. [Metz.TNT, 152-4] These fellows, at least, were on guard against any variations. To this we may also add that scribal science used in Alexandria on the NT in the early decades also ensured careful treatment of the text.
In summary, here is a general admonition regarding charges of NT textual corruption: Until solid textual evidence is found for such changes, all that we are being offered with such objections is supposition. Rather than citing some particular textual difficulty, all we have [from] the typical critic is some vague idea that somewhere, somehow, we must be missing SOMETHING that will cause problems for the Christian faith.
https://www.tektonics.org/lp/nttextcrit.phpSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
We've been over this before. There are thousands of manuscripts and manuscript fragments, far more than any other ancient work,
an abundance of original manuscripts"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThere are indeed but none of them are the original MSS. They are copies of copies of copies and not, as you wrote:
an abundance of original manuscriptsSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Yes, original manuscripts, as in authentic ancient texts and not forgeries. If I had meant the physical compositions of the original authors, then I would have said so.
The question being is the later ending of Mark a forgery? It was clearly not written by the original author."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThey are not the original MSS as they do not exist any more.
The question being is the later ending of Mark a forgery?
It was clearly not written by the original author.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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