Originally posted by Doug Shaver
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Who buried Jesus?
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
For what do I need such evidence?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Okay I've read through part of "Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World". Me thinks you misspoke psstein, there is no chapter on Jesus's burial - there is a section - Chapter 2/S.3.3.2, is that what you mean? It never makes mention of Josephus of Arimathea or put forward the case that Jesus was in fact buried. In fact the case that it puts forward if anything is that crucified bodies were usually left up on their crosses to rot, but were sometimes allowed to be taken down if there was a special Roman holiday coming up. That would suggest Jesus would likely have been left up on the cross until such a time as the Romans decided to let their "kinsfolk" collect the bodies of crucified victims, which could have been weeks or even months later. Am I reading that right?
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Seems likely to me the disciples fled Roman after Jesus was arrested for fear of being arrested themselves (as Jesus said in Mark 14:27) and all the events in the passion narrative from that point on were established from Roman practices and scripture (eg Psalm 69:21). The gospels were written decades later based on that.
I doubt even the disciples knew who buried Jesus.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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You're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.
This is what CitMW quotes:
"I have known cases when on the eve or a holiday of this kind, people who have been crucified have been taken down and their bodies delivered to their kinsfolk, because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites." Philo Flaccus 83.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI need a good reason to believe they are reliable. I have seen no good reason. That is my basis for not believing they are reliable.
I'm waiting to hear back from our mutual friend psstein on this, and whether there is more in CitMW that I should look at (I read Chapter 6, the conclusion, and other sections in the book that seemed relevant such as Chapter 2 S.3.3.2). It's actually a very easy to read book, but I'm not going to read the whole thing lol.
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostYou're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.
Who Killed Jesus?, 187, 188 (from here)
With regards to the passion narrative being made up from scripture, see Ancient Christian Gospels, by Helmut Koester, page 220 onwards.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostI haven't seen a convincing case that the execution account is terribly unreliable.
Of course I reject the proposition that I must believe either everything in them or nothing in them. I accept that some portions are more believable than others. But I think it reasonable to ask, of any portion that I'm told I should believe, why I should believe it.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI have said nothing about having a convincing case for the unreliability of any portion of the gospel narratives. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't need one.
Of course I reject the proposition that I must believe either everything in them or nothing in them. I accept that some portions are more believable than others. But I think it reasonable to ask, of any portion that I'm told I should believe, why I should believe it.
I would further say that if Jesus was crucified c. 30-31 AD as is consistent with most estimates that it would place the most likely time of his birth in c. 2 BC - 1 AD, which is outside of the timeline provided by the nativities (of course).
By the way to psstein please let me know if I've read what I have to and can return the book as it's the only copy that the St Mark's Theological Centre has and others might want to read it!Last edited by Aractus; 06-03-2017, 05:01 AM.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI need a good reason to believe they are reliable. I have seen no good reason. That is my basis for not believing they are reliable.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat the gospel accounts where they can correspond to history do. Missing corresponding information remains missing information.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Since Joseph of Arimathea was a member of a group of Jewish authorities, where is the inconsistency?Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostOkay I've read through part of "Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World". Me thinks you misspoke psstein, there is no chapter on Jesus's burial - there is a section - Chapter 2/S.3.3.2, is that what you mean? It never makes mention of Josephus of Arimathea or put forward the case that Jesus was in fact buried. In fact the case that it puts forward if anything is that crucified bodies were usually left up on their crosses to rot, but were sometimes allowed to be taken down if there was a special Roman holiday coming up. That would suggest Jesus would likely have been left up on the cross until such a time as the Romans decided to let their "kinsfolk" collect the bodies of crucified victims, which could have been weeks or even months later. Am I reading that right?
Yes, upon reviewing my copy, I confused the article with the book. The article is "Crucifixion and Burial," NTS 57, no. 2 (April 2011), 193-213.
There are other considerations to take into account with the gospel burial story. Byron McCane's article makes a good case for them: http://enoch2112.tripod.com/ByronBurial.htmLast edited by psstein; 06-03-2017, 10:38 AM.
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