Matthew 28:1 οψε δε σαββατων - After the close of the Sabbaths (for "the Sabbath" that would need to be σαββατου) The exact signification of the plural form is the subject of some debate - but I haven't seen anyone (as yet) say it is a Hebraism that didn't also say Mark got the day wrong. Another explanation that is proffered is to say that it means the two Sabbaths were concurrent: that is, Passover fell on a Saturday. Yet another (minority view, and the one that I subscribe to) is that AD 33 is the year of Christ's death ... and in AD 33, the sabbath of Passover fell on a Friday, so Sabbaths (rather than Sabbath) is only to be expected.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Who buried Jesus?
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by psstein View PostCrossan and Koester are the two most prominent. There's another scholar who contributed to the Anchor Bible Dictionary who thinks similarly, but so far as I can tell, it's at best a fringe position. Iirc, Crossan originated the idea in his The Cross That Spoke.
I am still curious why you claimed you could not think of any such scholar, despite already mentioning Crossan and Koester in this thread.
Hold on, you're moving from one thing to another. The Cross Gospel is Crossan's reconstruction of a common passion source behind the Synoptic tradition and the Gospel of Peter, which Crossan follows Koester's work on as an independent source. If you're talking about a pre-Markan passion narrative, that's less contentious, though still debated. I'm less skeptical of a pre-Markan passion narrative.
You are the one who mentioned the Cross Gospel. You are the one moving from one thing to another.
I think it's both, to be honest. Crossan and many others have seen the passion narrative as "prophecy historicized," which, while not necessarily implausible, seems to be only half the story. I think the passion narrative itself a combination of "history scripturalized," so Scriptural references added to history, as well as "prophecy historicized." I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there's often this strange belief among people that the Jesus movement consisted of him, his 12 disciples, and a few hangers-on. I think that's wrong. Jesus' inner circle (the Twelve) fled.
How many do you think were there when Jesus was talking to Pilate? I find it very unlikely there were any at all. From that, I think it very likely that at least part of the passion narrative was made up, based on what they thought probably happened. Given how long ago it happened, we really do not know for sure much of what happened, but I think it reasonable - likely even - that all Jesus' disciples fled, and pretty much all the passion narrative was based on what they guessed happened, given scripture and Roman practice.
I'm not assuming it. I'm arguing it based on the fact that you wouldn't leave a body up over the Sabbath, especially when it's Passover. Passover is one of the two festival holidays, and every Jew in the Roman Empire is coming to Jerusalem. Leaving a body on a cross is a really good way to offend them.
Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.
Let's not conflate burial accounts. The Markan account is rather plausible; Jesus is dishonorably buried by Joseph of Arimathea, a member of the Sanhedrin. It is not "certain" that Jesus's body was disposed of as a criminal; we have evidence that that was not the case around Jerusalem. Beyond that, the accusation of blasphemy is almost certainly ahistorical.
I agree it is not certain Jesus's body was disposed of as a criminal, but that is by far the most likely event. The chances of Pilate allowing anything else, if he allowed the body to be taken down, is very small small indeed. It is interesting how you cite usual Roman practice when it suits you, and yet here you want to reject it.
That is a big chunk on Mark 14 you are saying never happened. I think you are probably right; Jesus crime was treason against the Romans, and getting proclaimed the messiah was enough for that.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe answer is in the text itself - which would have been self evident if you had checked the chart against what is written by Mark.
?!? What do the events of the morning of resurrection have to say about the day that Jesus died? And what does the record of Matthew have to say about the record of Mark?Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-20-2017, 10:50 AM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostMatthew 28:1 οψε δε σαββατων - After the close of the Sabbaths (for "the Sabbath" that would need to be σαββατου) The exact signification of the plural form is the subject of some debate - but I haven't seen anyone (as yet) say it is a Hebraism that didn't also say Mark got the day wrong. Another explanation that is proffered is to say that it means the two Sabbaths were concurrent: that is, Passover fell on a Saturday. Yet another (minority view, and the one that I subscribe to) is that AD 33 is the year of Christ's death ... and in AD 33, the sabbath of Passover fell on a Friday, so Sabbaths (rather than Sabbath) is only to be expected.
RC is confused as it is. He already has his mind made up on the issues.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostAs if that were something apologists never did.
I learned during this thread, that Joseph and Nicodemus took down Jesus' body and place His body in the tomb. A detail I had glossed over when I was researching the the day of the crucifixion. From which I was able to conclude the year of the crucifixion. Most Christians assume the traditional Friday. Others hold a Wednesday view. I stumbled upon a Thursday view. (Mark 14:12, being the 14th of that month [Exodus 12:6,18];[Mark 1:32, evening being sunset] Mark 14:17; Mark 15:42; Mark 16:1. Luke 24:21, Thursday being third day counting back from Sunday.) [in 1969]Last edited by 37818; 06-21-2017, 12:23 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostIt's either the chart or Mark (the Word of God) who is right. Which is it?
Wow, you're trying really hard to wriggle out of what the New Testament actually says and what church tradition actually holds. Why is it called "Good Friday" again? Why is it called "Easter Sunday?" Jesus was said to have been raised on the "third day." The first day is Friday, the second is Saturday, the third is Sunday - when Jesus was raised.
"The first day of the week" is Sunday which is right "after the Sabbath." The synoptics unanimously support a Friday crucifixion and burial on the 15th of Nisan while John contradicts this and has it on the 14th on Nisan.Last edited by tabibito; 06-21-2017, 01:34 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWho said Christian apologist didn't have their mind's made up on a topic. One needs to understand different views, where applicable. There are different views among Christians regarding the birth, death and resurrection. It behooves a Christian apologist to know more than just his decided view.
I learned during this thread, that Joseph and Nicodemus took down Jesus' body and place His body in the tomb. A detail I had glossed over when I was researching the the day of the crucifixion. From which I was able to conclude the year of the crucifixion. Most Christians assume the traditional Friday. Others hold a Wednesday view. I stumbled upon a Thursday view. (Mark 14:12, being the 14th of that month [Exodus 12:6,18];[Mark 1:32, evening being sunset] Mark 14:17; Mark 15:42; Mark 16:1. Luke 24:21, Thursday being third day counting back from Sunday.) [in 1969]1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe chart is a direct listing of the sequence described by Mark - also self evident. The problem with Mark's record disappears when it is understood that "evening" has two distinct meanings - and it is hardly an unknown phenomenon for one word to have two distinct meanings in any given language. Across all, or almost all, European languages, the word for "day" might mean "hours of daylight" or "a cycle of twenty four hours." In Hebrew, evening might mean the last few hours of the "clock" day (3pm - 6pm) or it might mean the time from the "clock" day's end to full dark. YOUR interpretation of Mark has the last supper occurring in the last hours of the day of preparation, then Jesus being put on trial overnight, taken to pilate and sentenced to death, and executed: then to be taken down from the tree during the same end of day that he had the meal with the disciples - Mark states explicitly that he was taken from the tree during the last hours of the day of preparation ... That would take quite a miracle.
For counting days, Koine Greek uses a cardinal count, not ordinal: translating the count of days without a bit of messing with the text is impossible. In Koine Greek, on the third day is functionally equivalent to "three days from the start, or working backwards, three days ago." Working from Friday, Sunday is two days from now: working from Sunday - Friday is two days ago.
Passover
Mk. 14:16-17
The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating
This is clearly the Passover meal! Jesus is then arrested and has the Sanhedrin trial that same evening - Mk. 14:43-65.
Mk. 15:1
As soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council.
Jesus is tried, crucified and dies the next day (Friday) - which is still Passover (the day of Preparation before the Sabbath) - Mark 15:42
'When evening approached" (opsios) just indicates the tail end of the day - STILL PASSOVER!
So (according to you) now it is not Mark that is wrong, but John? All the gospels declare the day of preparation for Passover - Nisan 14.Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-21-2017, 10:38 AM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostA Wednesday Crucifixion wouldn't work - that would make Thursday the Sabbath, which in turn would make Friday just another Friday - there would have been no restriction on returning to the tomb on the Friday if it was just an ordinary day. And it can be deduced from the scriptural record that there was some sense of urgency about completing the funeral rites properly.
The women needed time to prepare the spices (Luke 23:56).Last edited by 37818; 06-21-2017, 01:37 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostI've already discussed the meaning of the Greek word opsios. Mark has the Passover meal Thursday night Mk. 14:12 -
Passover
Mk. 14:16-17
The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating
This is clearly the Passover meal! Jesus is then arrested and has the Sanhedrin trial that same evening - Mk. 14:43-65.
Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this monthThey shall eat the flesh that night,
Leviticus 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.
Mk. 15:1
As soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council.
Jesus is tried, crucified and dies the next day (Friday) - which is still Passover (the day of Preparation before the Sabbath) - Mark 15:42
'When evening approached" (opsios) just indicates the tail end of the day - STILL PASSOVER!
John 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover
Luke 23:54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.7 55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how his body was laid
Mark 15:42 since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus
Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread
Matthew 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation
No, the 14th of Nisan is when the Passover sacrifice occurs (Mk. 14:12) but that's when John has Jesus executed - John 19:14 onwards. The gospels, on the other hand, have Jesus executed the next day - 15th of Nisan. In the synoptics, when Jesus eats the Passover, that signals the beginning of Nisan 15.
From whence this definition of opsios that you provide?
Mickelson Strongs
G3798 ὄψιος opsios (o'-psiy-os) adj.
1. late.
2. (feminine, as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve).
SUMMARISING
The passover lamb is prepared and eaten on the 14th day of Nisan.
It is eaten in the evening: which, in Hebrew, could be between 6pm and last light, or between 3pm and 6pm
The passover lamb could therefore be eaten at either end of the 14th day of Nisan.
The 14th day of Nisan is not a sabbath: the 15th is.Last edited by tabibito; 06-22-2017, 12:51 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOK. I am persuaded that Thursday is that Passover sabbath. So you still have not answered me regarding Mark 14:12. Did you and I missed it?
The women needed time to prepare the spices (Luke 23:56).56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSeems that they prepared the spices in double quick time.
And according to Luke, that first day of the week, Sunday was the third day after the crucifixion. That would make Friday, the Preparation day, the first day after those events.
In modern Greek usage the word "Preparation," Παρασκευή is the name of the day of the week Παρασκευή, our Friday.
None of the gospel accounts say the crucifixion took place on the 6th day, being the Preparation. In all the accounts the Preparation day is mentioned after Jesus had died. Only John (19:14) refers to that morning, our 6 A.M., as a preparation of the Passover. (There were 7 days of this, Numbers 28:24.)Last edited by 37818; 06-22-2017, 08:10 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe Passover lamb is eaten on the 14th Nisan - not on the 15th, the day of the Passover f[e]ast.Last edited by 37818; 06-22-2017, 09:04 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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