Originally posted by Jedidiah
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI didn't say that the N.T. was written as a fairy tale in the sense that it was meant to be understood as such. I'm sure that the gospel authors wanted their readers to believe in the reality of the events they wrote of, that they may have even believed those things themselves, but the fact that they believed what they wrote doesn't make what they wrote any more of a reality. Their belief doesn't make it so! Its a fairy tale because its BS, plain and simple. Flesh and blood can't walk on water, two fish can't feed thousands, demons don't live in our bodies, mountains can't be moved by believing, the long time dead don't climb out of their graves and chat with the locals, people don't become paralyzed from sinning, and they are not cured of paralysis by forgiveness, etc etc etc. Its a fairy tale!Last edited by Tassman; 07-05-2017, 12:21 AM.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGood to know that your preconceived notions trump evidence. I'd ask you to consider reading Craig Keener's book on miracles, but I'm not sure your mind could take the cognitive dissonance required to get through it while maintaining your skepticism. Even Gary couldn't get all the way through it.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostIn my non-internet life, I'm a historian. So I know quite a bit about this kind of thing. There are many accounts in ancient history that do not have multiple supporting pieces of evidence, independent sources, etc. Nobody doubts the fundamental historicity of them.
No, I do know this. This is the view of every NT scholar, historian of Christianity, etc. in the world who teaches at an accredited university. The gospels testify to how Jesus' message was remembered and interpreted by Christian communities.Many historical works from the ancient world relate miraculous occurrences. That doesn't make them ahistorical. Nobody discounts Josephus for his reports of miracles.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThat hasn't been my experience, nor the experience of many other Christians I know.
First of all, plenty of Christians have come to their worldview through rational arguments.
But even those who do not, still often come to their worldview through other forms of evidence.
I know many Christians who've come to faith in Christ through personal experiences in their lives, or by seeing a radical change in someone else's life.
Some people come to their worldview through philosophical questions and deep personal contemplation without knowledge of systematic theology.
They look at the world around them, and see the evidence of God in creation.
They see evidence in the purpose of life.
They see evidence in the existence of good and evil.
They ask themselves, "where did this all come from?" "what is it all about?" "where are we all going in the end?"
Now you may have never asked yourself these questions, nor found any of this evidence particularly powerful, but millions and millions of others have. To lay blanket claims that believers simply believe because they want to, and disbelievers never do that is intellectually dishonest.
Why is it that your god doesn't ask those questions of himself, like, "where did I come from, why do I exist, and what is my purpose?" For the same reasons we don't need answers to them, there is no reason for our existence, it just is.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostCan you provide examples?
I'm not saying it does. Let's stay on one topic at a time. You're arguing for some sort of Bultmannian skepticism where we can't know anything substantial about the historical Jesus on extremely shaky grounds.
Not immediately, no. The TF has an authentic core, at least in the view of most Josephan scholars (most of whom are not Christians, by the way), though a small minority believes the entire portion is an interpolation. You can pick anything from Josephus: if we're required to throw out sources because they have miracles, than nothing Josephus says can be considered reliable information.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostOff the top of my head, the Nika Revolt, as well as much of the reign of the Byzantine Emperor Maurice.I'm not saying it does. Let's stay on one topic at a time. You're arguing for some sort of Bultmannian skepticism where we can't know anything substantial about the historical Jesus on extremely shaky grounds.Not immediately, no. The TF has an authentic core, at least in the view of most Josephan scholars (most of whom are not Christians, by the way), though a small minority believes the entire portion is an interpolation. You can pick anything from Josephus: if we're required to throw out sources because they have miracles, than nothing Josephus says can be considered reliable information.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell that may be, it isn't only that you want to believe, but you were first indoctrinated to believe.
The rational arguments come after the early indoctrination.
No, they try to support their preconceived world view.
Any examples?
Most religious people are brought up religious. Philosophical questions and contemplating on them comes after the fact. The idea of God has already been implanted.
Again, thats because the idea of god and creation has already been impressed upon them.
That doesn't even make sense.
Again, doesn't make sense. Good and evil make perfect sense without god.
Thats what I said, they want to believe!
That isn't evidence of god, its evidence of peoples desire for there to be a god to give them purpose, to give the eternal life etc etc.
Why is it that your god doesn't ask those questions of himself, like, "where did I come from, why do I exist, and what is my purpose?"For the same reasons we don't need answers to them, there is no reason for our existence, it just is.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhy does a creator seem more likely to you than a self existent natural world,
and has that always been your view?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOh, does Keener say that God answers the prayers of amputees to regrow lost limbs? Or does he only focus on things that can be explained psychosomatically or are susceptible to a possible natural explanation?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNot a preconceived notion, there is no evidence of anything other than the existence of the natural world and natural law.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOh, does Keener say that God answers the prayers of amputees to regrow lost limbs? Or does he only focus on things that can be explained psychosomatically or are susceptible to a possible natural explanation?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, he does cite some cases of regrown limbs. He generally focuses on things that can't be explained psychosomatically, and quite readily acknowledges that some alleged miracles are faked. He doesn't just uncritically accept or reject every account he comes across.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostLimbs don't regrow OBP. And you think I'm a hoot!
If all else fails, there's a perfectly natural and scientific reason for it which is simply not yet understood.
I've seen the like with regard to prophecy - people who sincerely don't want to believe have impressive arsenals of defence against any evidence suggesting that the supernatural is real.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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